Simon: G’day guys, and welcome to another episode of The Mindful Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about climate change.

Simon: I’m really excited about this chat. I’ve got Katharina Hellman from Munich, Germany. How you going Katharina?

Katharina: Hi Simon. I’m good. Thanks for having me, welcome everyone.

Simon: Thanks for joining us. I’m really excited about this because I think climate change has been on the mind of a lot of people around the world, for a few years now, and it’s timely we’ve just had a lot of floods down in Victoria, in Australia the last couple days, and also the northern parts, of Tasmania, and I think even, the southeastern parts of New South Wales. So, as we’re recording this, they’re in the, midst of that crisis over there, but also the start of the cleanup. So, it’s a timely discussion that we’re having and we’re also, when this comes out in, you know, later on in the year, it’s also going to be in the midst of our summer season, which means bush fires are going to be probably happening. We, usually get some bush fires each year., and I think, we’re at a point in our time where we have to stop denying that climate change is an actual issue. So yeah, I’m really excited to hear about your story related to climate change. But before we get to that point, I’d just like to hear a bit about you and, where you grew up and what some of those key life events that led you to where you are today.

Katharina’s backstory

Katharina: Yeah, thanks Simon. So, I grew up just outside of Munich here in, in beautiful Bavaria in Germany, southern Germany. And, I actually grew up in a place that, is like a natural paradise, really. You know, like the Alps, the mountains are just an hour drive away. It’s close to the city. It was close to like a lake shore, a beautiful lake there. So, I mean, it was really sort of really peaceful and, and sheltered, natural surrounding and, and I’m very grateful for that beautiful experience. Having said that my, let’s say awakening with regards to climate and environmental, let’s say problems or climate change in general, came much later. So, you know, during my university time and then like early work life, I was, I mean, I was just enjoying life, you know, traveling here and there, flying all over the place, going on a world trip. Also, to Brisbane by the way. I loved it. Australia., I did the East coast and then all of that. So, I mean, I, I just totally love traveling. And I, at the time I didn’t think much of it. And yeah, I had this probably classic western society life, you know, shopping, going out with friends, traveling, doing all sorts of things that. Like from my now perspective are probably a, like I would qualify them as sort of superficial meaning less, at least with regards to consumption and, partying and all that kind of stuff. It but yeah, I mean, it was what it is. And I mean, it’s part of my story, so I own it and I’m happy that I had this type of life.

Climate change and mental health

Katharina: And for me personally, my turnaround came, in 2018. I just gotten married the year before and my husband and I were, you know, in the process planning our family basically. And then this I P C C report dropped from the United Nations Climate Change panel and I didn’t read the report itself, but just the media coverage and the summaries that I read about it were enough, to wake me up and, and to like really send me, on a very deep and dark downward spiral. And from that day on, I started to question everything. My life, my job, my purpose. Did I even have a purpose? What was my purpose in life? Did it even, could I even take the responsibility to continue like nothing had happened and, have a baby and build my life like we had planned to without making any changes whatsoever. And, putting a human into the world as I was perceiving it through the words of this report and I cried for extensive periods of time. I mean, it was really, really bad. And I went to therapy. No one really, was on the same page as I was. I had the feeling no one really got where I was coming from. A lot of people just said, “ah, come on”. It’s not going to be as bad as you think it’s going to be. Maybe we don’t know. Let’s wait and see. Other things that I heard was, “Yeah. I mean, I know it’s bad, but come on, we’ve got other problems right now. , we have to get this done or that done or”, you know, I mean, just life was getting in the way and the next XY Z had to be planned and done , so , I didn’t really find a place where I could go with all these emotions that I had, and with all this crying , that I did, and then I had the feeling that no one around me, even professionals that I hired specifically for that purpose, couldn’t help me to get a grip on that or to make a dent into, make sense of what was going on. During that period, I tried out a lot of personal growth things and, in my search of a way out of that black hole. And I came across this coaching school that I later certified in as a coach with. And, that was the moment when I, for the first time, I think ever in my life, like really understood what was going on for me from a point of view of what was going on in my brain, my whole nervous system, my neurological process with all this like scientific sounding stuff, which got translated to me into, into “aha” moment of, oh, this is what’s going on. So, it’s not that I’m sick or that I’m ill or that there’s anything wrong, but the it with me, it’s just how things work with this. brain of our’s, that we have at humans. And so that was the moment that I then started to kind of get a grip and, and, start to be able to dig myself out of that black hole there and this was, this process was so transformative for me that I then decided to become a coach and to certify in these tools just to be able to teach others. So, and that’s what I’m now doing. And on top of that, I did an advanced coaching certification specifically with regards to climate change, which was also very helpful. And, what I’m doing now is, I’m bringing coaching tools of all sorts around emotional processing, around brain sciences, brain management, thought processes, thought work, and of any kind to people who are suffering I in whatever way, emotionally, mentally with regards to climate change and who want to do something about it that is very important to me. I want to be able to work with people who want to change something who, who feel kind of stuck and blocked by their emotions and by what is going on for them, but who ultimately are not the ones that are giving up or that have already given up at those, but the ones that still see a faint sliver of hope that, you know, if they could get over whatever is holding them back, that they could contribute something that would at least improve a little bit what is happening to, to all of us. So that is, what I’m doing now yeah.

Simon: Wow. It’s such a, a journey and there’s so much power, in using your own pain to grow and to tune into what’s happening, but also to then help other people through your coaching as well. So many questions. What was it about that report specifically, did something really stick out to you go, wow, what’s happening in the world, is not right? Do you remember something from that report that really, caused that downward spiral?

Katharina: I think for me, predominantly it was the timeline. It was this sentence that said, or this idea that, I mean, it’s not an idea, it’s a fact that, the world’s carbon, budget will be used up in about 12 years’ time, back from 2018. So, I mean, now, it’s eight years. So, for me, this deadline was, was the most, the scariest thing and also, with regard to the effects that scientists are say going, are going to happen. For example, the rising of, sea levels, for example, my husband is from Bennet, from the beautiful city of, of Bennet in Italy, and, and we go there quite often to visit my mom-in-law and, every time I walk through the city, I’m torn between, laughing because it’s just so immensely beautiful and crying because I’m seeing in front of my inner eye that all of this will be submerged underwater, at least partially at some point. So, I’m, I’m also not immune. Of course, I’m a human as well, so I, even though I am a coach and I know about what is happening within myself, and with people who are feeling climate anxiety. I’m of course also, not a robot., I’m a human as well. So, for me I think that the, yeah, the deadline was the most poignant thing. And also sort of like imagining a world where all these effects that are that have been like forecasted have already come into play. And, and of course, calculating my age and, and I mean to, to close the story from before I did decide to have a baby after all, I did, decide to, gamble on hope rather than on despair and have one child, just one. We used to have plans for more than one, but I decided, okay, one is the maximum I’m going contributing to the world in light of also climate change. And, but anyway, so you., whenever I’m thinking about how old my daughter will be, when all this is taking place, that is just a painful, a really painful thought for me. Of course. Yeah.

Simon: Yeah. And for people that haven’t read up on, on climate change, what’s the deadline that you’re talking about in eight years now. What’s that deadline?

Katharina: Well, I mean, it says like the report came out in 2018 and it, it says that from 2018, it was 12 years for us as humans to, use up our carbon budget, which still sort of could keep us within 1.5 degrees of the Paris Agreement. so, if we go over that, I mean, believe, please don’t quote me on this because I don’t remember the exact wording right now, but I mean, as far as I remember it if we don’t get this under control within the next eight years, and then actually reduce the emissions like significantly. There will be no hope of staying within this, degrees threshold. I’m actually not quite sure whether we, I, I think I’ve already read on some sites that scientists already start saying that there is no hope anymore to even, whatever we do there, it’s already too late to reach 1.5 threshold. So our best bet now is to remain under 2.0 degrees. , and I mean, this is of course tragic and everything, but for me and for my coaching and for my work and for my decision, how I want to think about that is it may be that it’s too late for 1.5, but everything that we can do now to prevent whatever is happening to get worse , than that or, to even break the, threshold of 2.0, let’s say at the moment, I think we are forecast to go versus three or four . So, whatever we can do to get that down will be helpful. So, for me, I don’t think it’s the moment to decide that everything’s already lost and to give up because giving up is actually the only thing that is guaranteed to not help and everything else that we can do that will help is going to be better than not doing anything. So that is how I have actively chosen to think about it. How I’m sort of reminding me every day that my work is valuable and that whatever I can do to contribute is valuable. And that is also what I’m hoping to, you know, transmit to as many people as possible. It’s not the time to give up now, it’s known it’s the time to keep fighting.

Simon: Yeah. And prior to 2018, did you have an interest in climate change? Was this something that was on your mind or is it something that you stumbled across?

Katharina: Well, I mean, it, it was on my mind as kind of this sort of general, I mean, I never doubted science, but I just hadn’t read up on it enough to actually know about it. I knew that it was a problem and that it was going to be bad at some point in the future, but I never really considered the implications that way, or even deadlines around it. that really came in in 2018. Yeah.

Simon: Yeah. And what prompted you to read that report?

Katharina: Oh, I don’t really remember. I think it just popped up on my newsfeed in Facebook at some point or the other. I can’t, I couldn’t tell why. I think at that point in time, it was at least partially over mainstream media as well. I mean, I wouldn’t even have to have been in, these deep environmental group kind of algorithm corners. I mean, it did get like mainstream media coverage, at least here in Europe. So, it was hard to not notice that for me, at least at that point. Yeah.

Simon: Yeah. And a lot of this stuff is starting to come out to that mainstream media. Australia hasn’t been great in this space and then it’s very worldly publicized, but we’ve had a change in government, so hopefully things change as well. And we did see a bit of a shift in our government, from the liberals a conservative group to more of a progressive that a lot more people were voting for the greens party, which don’t usually get a lot of seats in our, government. And I think a lot of people are mindful about the impact of climate change. You were saying that, you became a mom and I love talking to parents as well, cause I’m a dad as well. I’ve got two little ones. You said you settled on one child; how did you think that having one would be better than having multiple children?

Climate change and Parenthood

Katharina: Well, I mean of, of course, that’s a very, very personal decision. I mean, for, for me it was a variety of reasons that are also deeply personal and, with regard to, my age and like our family surroundings you know what we can make happen with, two full-time jobs and like you have the social And structure that we have my husband and I, but for me it does have another element for, for myself, because there is the Club of Rome report, I think it was back in the seventies or, even later, like the reiteration of that, that said, like, sorry that , I’m not quite firm on all these facts, but I mean, who wants to Google and read up on it , I’m sure can find the correct report and the correct quote, but stuck in my mind is that , if every woman in a western country, in, a developed country had only one child, rather than having multiple children, that would be really beneficial and helpful for the environment as a whole. Because of course, we, in, the more developed countries have these huge carbon footprints, whereas people in, let’s say Nigeria or countries that, let’s say, typically have also higher birth rates also tend to have a lower carbon footprint, at least up to a certain point in time, you know, back in history. So, for me, this was, this was also a very profound realization that I have a responsibility here as a westernized woman. Also, with regards to, what I want to contribute to the world, also with regards to, my children. And that potentially like my kid not having siblings will help her more on the global scale with regards to, not having more children that will produce emissions and that will destroy the planet more, will actually help her better. I mean, maybe that’s a bit of a controversial thought for many people that are listening. But I’m, I believe for myself at least, I’d rather have one child and, and, you know, give her all that I can give her. And for me it’s also, you know, I mean the experience of being a mother that is so precious to me, I already have that. I don’t have to repeat that with another child to. Feel it or to value it more. But that’s also some, some thinking of mine around that. So yeah, as I said, this is very personal and a maybe controversial topic, but it is, true that, the decision of how many children we have specifically, in developed western countries has a huge impact on our carbon footprint and on our societies down the line.

Simon: It’s a really valid, consideration when you’re, planning a family, what’s going to happen in the future? How are we going to afford this because kids are, are expensive, how are we going to manage where they’re going to go to school? But also, when you’re thinking more broadly around climate change, like what’s the future going to be like? My wife and I often have discussions in our household, what is the future going to look like for our kids? From a technology perspective, from a job’s perspective, from a cost of living expensive, like cost of living in Australia is going through the roof at the moment. And from what I understand, across the world, but also from a climate perspective as well, we’re always often wondering what’s the world going to look like in 10, 20, 30 years for our kids?

And we’ve got two. And I always think about the Great Barrier Reef, and we always hear about the coral bleaching and I’ve never been there. I’m 39, I’ve never been up to the Great Barrier Reef. It’s in my backyard. But I really want to get there before anything worse happens so that my kids can see it and experience it, and see the beauty before it just becomes, devastated through things like, sea change, the warmth in the water as well from bleaching. So, it’s a very valid point and a lot of people are starting to tune into this and be mindful of this because we want the best for our kids as parents naturally, we want them to have the best, upbringing, but also into adulthood cause we’re not going to be there to help cushion them when even though we want too when, we’re old. But there’s comes a point in time when we move on and so forth. So, it’s a very valid point and you know, hats off to you for thinking about that, I think when you’re planning a family, a lot of people might not necessarily go that far into thinking how is this going to impact the world and other people as well. It’s, quite a selfless act, to only have one child. So, what does it mean to you to be a mom?

Katharina: Oh my God. How much time do we have? I mean it’s, it’s for sure been the most profoundly changing experience of my whole life. And I mean, of course this is cliche and we know it, and, and you know, everyone tells you, but I think until you’ve actually gone through the experience, you don’t realize what that actually means. And yeah, I mean, we are not here to talk about, parenting and that kind of stuff, so, I’m going to turn it around again to the to the climate subject though, I’m seeing this as my contribution to hopefully leave the world or leave a human in this world that is capable of doing good in the world, that knows her way around things that is able to manage and navigate how the future will look like. So I’m actually my initial consideration for getting trained as a coach was that I was going to be able to equip my daughter with all that she needs to preserve her mental and emotional health as a, as a young teenager and as an adult , when it get like, kind of when the s hits the fan, let’s say So that was my original consideration , and then gradually, , I looked into turning this also into a business because of the transformation that I experienced, not only within myself, but also within my, my clients. But so, she is my, she is my beacon of hope really. So, she is my symbol of hope. I said in the beginning, I think I chose hope over the despair, and that is also with regards to her. So, I, my thinking was I want to allow myself the experience of having a child because I think this is the most human thing that, to have a wish for procreation and for a child. So, I do want to allow myself this experience, but I want also consider my responsibility for the planet, which is the reason why we, I’m keeping it at one. and yeah, so I’m, anytime I’m looking at her, she’s, my motivation. She’s my why behind my coaching, behind me wanting to go out and, and wanting to also help and inspire other people to, , maybe not give up and, and do something and find something that they can do within their world within their value system within their abilities and things that they want and can do and , can contribute and even things that maybe they aren’t thinking of yet or they don’t see a qualities, because that’s also something that I’ve noticed, very often people don’t really identify the things that come naturally to them or that they’re very good in as qualities because they think, well, I mean, it’s, it’s just how I am. but I mean these qualities that a lot of people have that come very naturally to them that they don’t even see anymore those are the things that we and or that can do good in the world. And yeah. So, so for me, my daughter is, as I said, she’s, my beacon. She’s my symbol, she’s my why. She’s my reason for doing what I’m doing. My biggest hope with her is that in, in 10 or 20 years, I’ll be able to look her in the eye and say that, you know, I didn’t just sit back idly, I was doing what I could. I changed my life. I, I mentioned in the beginning that I’m, that I used to be this, leather shopping queen type of, I mean, I’m living positively minimalistic today compared, I’ve been changing a lot of things around the house since, I read this report with regards to reducing our carbon footprint and then all these kinds of things. For example, we sold our cars, I haven’t been on a plane for, since 2018. we’ve changed a lot and, and I do want to be able to tell her, that I did something that tried to do whatever I could with what was available to me at the time, to help that she will have a good life. Maybe not as good as it could have been without climate change, but at least a good life.

Simon: Yeah. I love that. You are shaping this little human being in the future and, and what you want for the future as well. And your daughter’s really going to tune into that and go, well, yeah, mom and dad did the best they could and they shaped who I am today. And, it is really an amazing thing to go through as a dad myself we do look at them as like little beacons of hope for the future and maybe a better world. We’re talking about this off air; my platform is primarily a mental health one. And, to be the, the dad for my son that I didn’t really have growing up in the mental health space, I’ve got a father, but he wasn’t really into mental health discussions. Yeah, is something that I look forward to. And he’s a beacon of hope that he can, grow up in a generation where he can talk about his feelings and emotions because he sees his dad doing it as well. So, it is a unique challenge, but also, yeah, I love that beacon of hope for the future as well. It’s really nice. But let’s get back into your, coaching and so forth. You mentioned that you went to therapy as well, and you really struggled to maybe connect with different therapists around this issue. I envisage that, it’s quite a niche area and there’s not many therapists doing type of work in there. Can you talk us through some of those challenges of finding someone to talk to about this and were you successful in eventually finding someone that who could help? Or did you really have to take it into your own hands to work through?

Therapy and becoming a climate change coach

Katharina: Well, I mean, in the end I did have to take it into my own hands because, I don’t have this extensive experience with a lot of people and I like to be perfectly honest I also had other topics that I discussed with them other than climate change. So, I do myself as a climate change coach feel like a total pioneer at times in this niche, as you say, because I think it’s only been 10 years or so that there’s been actually this connection between climate change and mental health being recognized as having a connection at all. So, what I’m saying is the, the whole idea mental health is a problem to be considered in the realm of climate change it is very new. So, there are now a, a growing number of psychologists and therapists that are, specifically trained in in that topic. I think there is even the coaching a climate of psychologist’s alliance or something that is something that I came across. So, I think now there are, better options, but maybe for me, I was never, maybe the reason therapy didn’t work for me is because I wasn’t like the, a therapy patient., because for me, the main, I was always probably more someone who was in need of coaching rather than therapy. Because for me, definition or kind of the difference between coaching and therapy is that a therapist will help people in a certain aspect of their life, non-functional to a certain degree. And a therapist will help them get to, let’s say zero level, to a place where they can, have a normal life and, function normally. And whereas coaching is designed to, I mean, other than having different qualifications and lengths of trainings and, and all that kind of stuff. But coaching is more like helping people who are already at or beyond this zero line and, and just want to get to the next step of human evolvement , who want to achieve goals or who want to do other things .For me, I never really resonated with the, let’s say, clinical medical aspect of therapy, but still like one of the most profound realizations that I had when I got across the coaching that I’m now trained in is what is actually happening in my brain when I’m reading about climate change, for example, what is actually causing my climate anxiety, what is going on for me emotionally, how I can deal with that, and that wasn’t anything that ever came up in any of any of these therapy sessions. In fact, with therapy, I’m hoping, I’m not offending any, therapist listening to this. But my personal experience with therapy was that I was the only one talking, and there wasn’t really any sort of play by play or it almost was like not getting any sort of feedback, or at least not any feedback that I was able to compute or apply practically in my life with regards to changing anything for the positive, it was like a, a standpoint or a viewpoint that I got mirrored back at me, but it never, or maybe a different perspective, but it never, it never transcended into me being actually understanding why and what was going on and what to do about it and how to go on from there. And, that is something that, that I kind of had to find for myself and, and I finally found in, in coaching. Yeah.

Simon: Yeah., you raised some really valid points. The first one is that therapy’s not for everybody, and there’s different ways to address, mental health challenges., we’re seeing an explosion of coaching in the world, and I think coaching’s fantastic. Therapists are going to say the same to me. They’re going to be like Simon. Talk about coaching, don’t pump coaching up because coaching is less training and all that. But from a guy’s perspective, I often, one of the first things I’ll say to a guy in a therapy thing, cause I’m a therapist as well now, is you can call this counselling or therapy, but if you prefer, I also like the term coaching. and a lot of guys really tune into that. Cause I go, yeah, I prefer this idea of a coach. We’re a sports mad country here So, anything to do with sports is something that we can really relate to. But I think for a lot of guys, they like this idea of coaching because it’s more, as you said, it’s more of a, fuelling the purpose and the drive and the push as well, for a lot of people that, are already over baseline and they’re just looking for that extra push to try and get them further. So, I love that. And, and it just highlights that there are different ways to deal with mental illness. You know, whether it’s therapy, whether it’s coaching, whether it’s something completely different. There are different ways, and knowledge is power. You took it into your own hands, to figure out for yourself what’s the best process. And I think when we dive into reading and researching things that are going on in our lives, like climate change, or for me it was like it was obsessive compulsive disorder. When I was diagnosed with that., it really gives you power over A what’s happening in your body, knowing what’s happening in your body and your mind as well, but also what you can do to address that as well. So, the more that we can learn about things, the more that we can push forward as well and get through adversity. So, I really love those two points that you raised there. So, let’s talk about coaching. Tell us all about what you do with coaching. What do you do as a climate change coach?

Katharina: Well, I mean, as I said, this whole coaching niche or topic is absolutely new. It’s completely evolving, and, and I do feel like a total pioneer also because, there are climate change, like there are people out there who call themselves climate change coaches, for example, the people that have taken the same certification, some advanced certification that I have taken. But interestingly enough, I seem to be one of the only few ones, or maybe, I mean, I haven’t come across anyone else yet that is doing only climate change topics. So, a lot of people, let’s say for example, A leadership coach or a career change coach or a nutrition coach, they started as that coach, but then they kind of sort of integrated the climate change aspect into their coaching. And even my mentors and teachers from the coaching certification were established coaches in their practice. And then, you know, they had this extra knowledge that they brought in if the situation sort of lent itself to that. Whereas I’m completely 100% towards climate change. topics. So, I’m, I’m, for example, my Instagram account is Eco Anxiety Coach, so I’m, I’m branding myself also, as, solely and explosively working in the climate change sphere. So, there isn’t really anything that I found that is quite like that. So, I can’t really speak about what the others or what typical climate changes coaches do. But what I do is I bring of course, whatever the client needs to the session. So that can be anything from, you know, emotional processing that is most likely going to be the first thing that people, want or need with me or from me is to just kind of get this whole emotional baggage off their, off their chest. So a lot of people come to me and they are maybe already crying like in the first session because a lot of the, the emotions that have been, you know, shut down, pushed down, avoided because it’s just too heavy to deal with, for them it, it comes to the surface and we do a lot of processing and managing of these emotions and the, the very first thing is always to, to just allow them to just let these emotions come to the surface without pushing them down, without ignoring them, without distracting yourself from it. But you just let them come and, and experience them consciously on purpose even because, ultimately what is happening is that, you know, emotions are just vibrations of energy, that are originating in our brain and then moving from our brain through our body. And if we block that flow of energy, it is very detrimental for our health in the middle or medium to long term. You know, it can lead to all sorts of also like physical problems. So, it’s, it’s much better to learn how to just let them be present because if you let them flow through your body, unhindered it’s going to be so much faster and so much easier for you to process with them, and you will actually realize that they are ultimately harmless. That it’s just a vibration of energy, it’s nothing that will kill you. And then once you’ve kind of mastered that, you are then going to come to a place of being where you are in a sort of capacity where you have your agency, your power back to actually look at, okay, where are these emotions actually coming from? What is causing them? And is there anything that I can do to influence what is causing them? So, I’m doing a lot of emotional processing around climate change with, with people, and then I’m trying to help them understand and see what the, the, the real cause of their emotions and, and how they can change and influence that. And of course, other like elements and topics can include things like you know, what can I do as an individual with regards to climate change? Can I find anything that I am capable of that like fits within my life within my value system without my capacities within my abilities as a, as an individual. What is my, let’s say, sweet spot of where I can make a difference with regards to either reducing my carbon footprint or affecting change in my social or business, or maybe even political environment in my family, in my, friends, that kind of thing. Also, a topic that comes up quite often is family and, navigating relationships with others such as family or friends who maybe aren’t on the same page. So, I mean, I’ve talked in the beginning about that, that I had the impression that I’ve kind of felt sort of strange or lonely within my own environment because no one really seemed to be understanding where I was coming from and where what I was even talking about, because no one really had read up on stuff as much as I had, maybe, or no one even had the same thoughts about stuff that I had read, even if they had read about it and stuff. So, a lot of what I’m doing with people is also, you know, helping them navigate and repair these relationships. Leave behind things like people pleasing, perfectionism with regards to being the perfect one and only if you’re the perfect one you can allow yourself to, talk to other people about climate change, that sort of thing. I’m doing, yeah. I’m helping people and as I said, identify things that they can do. I’m, in fact, I’m having on my website I have for download a freebie a free Guide to the 15 most effective things that client tells us that we can do as individuals to lower our carbon footprints and I, and these things are actually the, also at the same time, things that have the least impact or like require the least change to our individual lifestyles. So that is also something that teaching people what is something that actually makes a difference? You know, a lot of people, for example, talk about I don’t know avoiding plastic and, and which is of course a very valuable and, and good thing to do, but it’s not the most effective thing that you can do as an individual in order to reduce your carbon footprint. So, you know, there are a lot of things that, that also get purported. Maybe, maybe wrong other things I’ve blown up or, you know, the right things aren’t really actually mentioned. So, so that’s, yeah, that’s a lot of what I’m, what I’m doing. But I mean, I think that the biggest, the biggest thing is really this emotional aspect of it, this, this, you know, letting the emotions part of your life, letting them be normal, not like criminalizing them or sort of branding them as being an illness or sick because it’s, I mean, what is underneath all this sadness and grief and, and hope that the despair that people usually tend to feel with regards to climate change, the underlying emotion is always love. It’s for the planet, for nature, for everything that we have or maybe have lost. And it’s a grieving process. So, there is a lot of grieving associated with climate change. But only if you have done all the grieving that you needed to do, only then will you be able to come out strong on the other side and then sort of reorient yourself and, and, know, pick up what’s left, pick up the pieces and go forward from there and what you do.

Simon: Yeah. Wow. There’s, lots involved and it’s so in depth the way you describe it, the relationships and the things that you can do. I’m interested from a relationship perspective cause there’s still a lot of people there that deny it’s an issue or, or people that go, okay, this is too far in the future for me to worry about now. what’s one thing that you can, you could share that is a useful tip for people in a relationship where perhaps the partner is not really on the same page as, as each other on, climate change. Like how do they kind of bridge that gap a little?

Advocating for climate change

Katharina: Yeah. Well, I think one of the most important things I can share here is that blaming, anger, judgment, criticism, and, and all these kinds of things that ultimately are designed to change the other person are not going to get you anywhere., because what happens is that our emotions are. Responsible for our actions. So, our feelings determine what we do or don’t do. So, if, if you picture yourself being criticized, being attacked, being judged, being blamed for your inaction on climate change, what is the most probable reaction that you will have in response to that? Probably not, going forward and, and, and changing your mind and saying, okay, I’ve been wrong. I’ll do it differently from today, but you’d rather feel probably indignant and resistant and, you know, doing it like keep doing what I’m doing just on principle, just despite the person that is shaming me. So what I’m saying here is that, and, and I’m also seeing this in, in, in a lot of sort of activism out there, that a lot of people that from a totally understandable like point of view, like it’s totally understandable that a lot of people are feeling anger with regards to government and, and you know, that was in power, that nothing has happened for all these decades, that science has already told us what was going on and no one listen. And now people are just blowing up with rage. But the problem is, when you are using that emotion of, of rage and anger in your, at least in your personal environment, it’s, it’s most probably going to be more harmful than helpful because as I said, the other person is going to feel attacked most probably. And, and usually we don’t take the most constructive and, and sort of thought through action from being attacked. It’s, it’s going to be more of a defines mechanism. Rather than wasting all your mental and emotional energy on trying to change someone who does not want to change for whatever reason. I suggest to rather first realize that, that, you know, you cannot change another person unless they want to change themselves as well. And then maybe then comes the question, whether you are the right person to tell them how or to help them, that’s another discussion. But ultimately, you won’t be able to change anyone who absolutely refuse it to help and, and you will be much more, effective both in the relationship with this person and also with, with regards to doing what you ultimately want to do, which is helping to fight climate change. If you just tell this person, okay, I think you are wrong, but I love you anyway, and then you go off, leave them to their ways, and you look for other people who will think like you and, and, you know, build a community with them. Find something that you can contribute, find a network, a group of people that are on the same page as you are, and spoiler alert, most probably there are going to be enough people around you, you just haven’t realized it because, I mean, there are so many statistic out there that most that I think it’s in, in the US that’s now almost 70% of people are worried about climate change but only 49 or 50% think that everyone else is also worried about climate change. So, there is a whole big proportion of people that feel that they are the only ones around them who are worried about climate change when it’s not the case at all. So rather than, you know, beating up your own a family member or friend about not doing enough, go like, save your energy, conserve your energy, and focus it on finding other people and finding something that you can do without them. So, I think that that my biggest, my biggest suggestion here.

I really like that. I was thinking about there’s power in our actions as well. So, if we are just living the life that we want to live and doing the things that we can do, that kind of rubs off other people notice that as well. those types of actions can start to prompt, seeds of doubt and, and new thoughts and go, oh look, they’re doing this over here, over time that can break down those, those barriers that were up for a long time. So, in the end, you know, by doing what you want to do and how you want to do it and with other people and, you then change your life and you are the whole demeanour about climate change and you don’t need those others to change anymore because you are already affecting so much change without them, you’re much more likely to inspire them. Because then they see that it’s actually easy and it can actually be fun and it can be actually a community thing and maybe they don’t want to join in or something. So, you know, there, so many more possibilities in, in, in doing that rather than, you know, continuing to beat the others Who are not doing.

Simon: And I think there’s an element of stigma and shame around it because like thinking about the mental health space, on its own, you know, there’s only been the last from my perspective, the last 10 years that we’ve started openly talking about mental health, and we’ve still got a long way to go, but the more we talk about it, the more we normalize it and it makes it lesser taboo and less stigmatizing and less discriminatory to talk about and, and have , emotional, , ill health or mental illness or however you want to define it. So, I think the same thing can go for climate change as well. It’s often been one of those things that we go, oh, you either believe it or if, if you don’t believe it, it’s really, no, I definitely don’t believe it this is not me, I’m not going to deal with it. But over time you can break those hard nuts down and they can come around as well, just the more we talk about it and be mindful of it. And that’s why I’m loving having this discussion with you and sharing this, your story with the podcast community so that we as men, particularly this is the Mindful Men podcast, and is that we can go, okay. Yeah. The things I’ve been thinking about for the last few years, maybe they, they’re experiencing eco anxiety. And men struggle to talk about, particularly in Australia, men struggle to talk about mental illness. So, if they’re coupling that with their concerns about the environment, this is a great prompting, you know, podcast episode for them to go, okay, maybe we can talk about this, maybe I can do some things that can change how I’m feeling about the world and how I’m feeling about myself as well. So yeah, the more we talk about it, the more we normalize it and I think we can be that example for our kids particularly. Which brings me to the next question you mentioned you’ve got on your website, 15 things that people can do to improve their environments and so forth. Picture, a family might be listening, a mum and dad might be listening and going, okay, yeah what’s something that we can do as a family at home or, in our community, is there something from that list that you’ve got, that a family could do together, to influence the way that, that, you know, they manage their environment?

Contributing to the environment at home

Katharina: Yeah, so one of the tops, I think the top three thing is to reduce food waste. And that is actually, what that means is that you reduce the amount of food that you buy that doesn’t get eaten because it gets bad, or you know, it’s not consumed for one, one way or the other. And there is a whole scientific system behind., this food waste that’s actually causing, not necessarily only in private household, but with regard to, producing the food transporting it to wherever it’s being processed and packaged, and then distributed to, you know, supermarkets and, and all of that kind of stuff. And then into private households. So, if you can reduce food waste, and I mean, of course that’s just the, you know, individual private person’s level, I mean, of course this also goes towards, you know, business canteens and, you know, big entities that have that, like restaurants, hotel., that kind of stuff. You know, a lot of food gets thrown away here. And, and of course a lot of the, the food that we produce which isn’t so much in the hand of individuals unfortunately, but a lot of the food that that gets produced., it doesn’t even make it into the supermarkets because of, you know, for, let’s say the banana, it’s straight instead of, you know, crooked. And that kind of, so, you know, these, these sort of norms that we. For our vegetables and fruit, for example. So, one of the easiest, I would say easiest and, and doable and sort of also cost-effective things to do as a family would be to have a look at what you are actually eating and to make meal planning around what you are eating so that you avoid buying things that either no one really likes or that go to waste. And, and of course another element is to eating meat as much as possible and to go more towards a plant-based diet. It doesn’t have to go overnight. It, you don’t have to become vegans by tomorrow, but if you can just you know, cut out a little bit of meats, but specifically red meat that is at least what science says that beef and lamb are the most, like with regard to, you know, carbon footprint per kilo of meat, with regards to emissions, that’s going to make a a big difference. And I’m believing, at least here in Europe, you know, meat is at least good quality meat is, is quite expensive. So, if you’re cutting that out specifically now in, in, in the cuts of living crisis, you probably together with the meal planning aspect, that that avoids food waste. You probably done a good chance of, you know, also, you know, saving quite some money. So that would, that would be a kind of a concrete example of what people could

Simon: Could that lead into things like a backyard veggie patch or something like that?

Katharina: Of course, if you have the space and, you know, balcony to do that, or, I mean, personally I don’t, I have, I live in a city apartment, so we don’t even have a balcony unfortunately. But I mean, of course if someone has a, has a patch of, of grass or some sort of box where you like, place where you can put stuff. But I mean, you know, and that, one thing that I also want to say specifically with regard to climate action, though a lot of pressure comes also from people thinking, oh, I won’t be able to do it perfectly, so I, I’m not even going to start because, you know, I, it’s, it’s too hard. It’s going to require too many changes at once. And what I want to say to that is, no one’s saying that you have to be perfect by tomorrow. So, but every little step that you can take is better than not doing anything. And whatever you can do today can lead into more tomorrow. So, for example, you can start with, you know what I mentioned, maybe eat one meal of meatless per week. And then maybe over time, once everyone’s gotten a you know habituated and, you know, no one’s really missing anything that could, can turn into two days, then, you know, don’t be too radical about it because this will cause too much willpower and, and understanding and maybe, and create too much social. Interruptions for everyone. Start slow. Take it slow and, and know that, you know, this is not like a sprint, it’s, it’s more of a marathon, but if at least a lot of people do this, it, it’s going to be really impactful, nevertheless. there’s this wonderful, there’s this wonderful quote that I, I don’t really know at the moment by whom it is from, but it says “We don’t need a few people doing climate action perfectly, we need a million of people doing the very best they can.” And that is something that I really want to live by and that I’m hoping a lot of people get inspired by as well. So, we don’t have to be perfect. The most important thing is that we start.

Simon: I love that notion around not being perfect and just doing your best. It’s, it’s similar to parenting. We often think about parenting, we try to be perfect parents, but, if we get it right most of the time, then we’re doing okay. So yeah, I love that., just start somewhere. Maybe, heading straight to your website and getting those, those 15 tips or so. I really love chatting with you, Katharina. It’s, it’s been a, a fantastic discussion around climate change and the impacts from a personal level, but also from a global level as well. So how can people, if they want to follow you more or get in touch and do some coaching sessions with you, where can they find you?

Katharina: Yeah, so, the easiest thing would be probably my website. So, if you put in www.ecoanxietycoach.com in one word, no hyphens, no full stops, no anything that’s going to lead you directly to my website. I’m also Eco Anxiety Coach on Instagram, on LinkedIn I’m available under my name, Katharina Hellman. Yeah, so I mean, there are lots of places to, to, to find me and, and follow me and, and as I said, I have on my website I have did 15 most effective things that an individual can do to reduce the carbon footprint without having to significantly change their lives. That is one free download that I have. And the other one is a little short seven minute I believe, or eight-minute video about the brain processes behind climate anxiety so that, you know, get people started on the journey of understanding what is actually happening with regard to climate anxiety in their brain. So that you know that, that that’s going to be the first step to doing something about it and to get out of that black hole. So that is probably, you know, two good starting points. And of course, anyone who wants to book a package of coaching sessions with me can, can do so via website. I’m offering a half an hour strategy session, which is free so that people can, you know, chat with me about what would be the best approach they want to take. Yeah, so I guess my website is probably a good landing point. www.ecoanxietycoach.com is the address.

Simon: Wonderful, and I’ll put the, the link in the show notes so that people can easily access that as well. As I said, I’ve really enjoyed this chat, but I also like to leave the last question over to you, and it doesn’t have to be anything that we’ve talked about today from parenting, Climate change mental health as well, but plug something that’s making you feel good at the moment. And the idea is that it, it inspires someone in our community to, to plug into that as well. And then they can, maybe feel good about their day as well. So, what’s something that’s making you feel good?

Katharina’s recommendation

Katharina: Yeah. I think for me, a, a very, very important outlet is music and listening and also doing it myself. So, I sing and I, I play the violin, so I, that, that is a very important, also like medium for me to express my emotions. Especially singing because it comes like from my body from within and it kind of expresses what I’m feeling into the world. So, I think it, it’s, it’s very important to, for all of us to have something like that where we can just be ourself, where we can just express ourself, be art, painting, music, something like that.

Simon: I love that. Yeah. I’ve got the guitar back there and every time I feel stressed or anything like that, like having a good session on the guitar with some singing as well. I think there’s a, there’s a process there with the breathing that helps us calm as well. It’s really cool technique. And even if you, if you don’t have a musical instrument singing in the shower, Something like that. Or in the car or wherever you are. So Wonderful. Katharina, I, I’ve really enjoyed this I hope you’ve had a great time on the Mindful Men Podcast, appreciate your time, and I look forward to following you and seeing your journey as and connecting in the future.

Thank you

Katharina: Thank you, Simon. Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, I’m hoping that this helped a little bit for your audience. Thank you very much.

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