Simon: Good day guys, and welcome to another episode of The Mindful Men Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about men’s mental health.

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Simon: Trigger warning, that if you are listening to this and mental health discussions do trigger you, feel free to skip this episode, that’s more than fine. But if you do stick around and you do get triggered by some of the discussion that we have today please reach out to your support networks afterwards. It’s really important that you talk about your mental health and joining me today, I’ve got Aaron Sanders from my hometown in Adelaide, south Australia.

How you going Aaron?

Aaron: Good. Simon, thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate being here.

Simon: I’m really excited to pick your brain and, hear about your story. But you’re a foodie stepping into this mental health world. So I’m really excited to explore that with you today and what that looks like for you. But before we start, tell us a bit about you where you grew up , and what childhood was like, and some of those key life moments for you.

Aaron: Yeah, so , I’m Adelaide born and bred. Always been here apart from a fun time traveling over and doing the master chef thing. But grew up very active family. My dad’s a teacher, mum’s a hairdresser and always playing sport. Dad ran ski trips, so always been around the snow and snowboarding and doing all of that. So really active life. We had a massive backyard, which was nice in the suburbs, like a creek and all of that, which was brilliant, and that sort of continued on through my life. I really enjoy being active and outdoors and fishing and surfing and snowboarding and all of the above. They’re really good hobbies of mine. So still playing a bit of sport. It’s a bit hard with the adult life, but playing baseball whenever I can.

Simon: Oh, cool.

Aaron: Much, much lower level than I used to, but yeah, it’s still good fun. ,

Sports and Wellbeing

Simon: Tell us about what sport means to you in terms of your, overall health and wellbeing. You’ve grown up with sport and I’m a sport lover , what does sport mean for you?

Aaron: Yeah, sport’s always been a massive part of my life. It’s kept me active, it’s kept me healthy and it’s kept me with a group of mates, so it’s always kept me around, you know, I’ve always played team sports. It’s not been a individual sport, but it’s, yeah, it’s kept me with a close group of mates. It’s kept that camaraderie. It’s, you know, it’s been really important to me and it’s always that challenge. I really enjoy the challenge. I’ve, never sort of been one to sit in a team that’s not being overly competitive. I do get a little bit frustrated in that . Yeah, so as long as we’re being competitive, I don’t mind getting absolutely flogged every week is not a, not a fun experience.

Simon: I’ve been on both ends of that stick. I’ve been in, really successful football teams and really unsuccessful football teams as well, so I know what that feels like.

Being a MasterChef contestant

Simon: But you mentioned Master chef,

Aaron: yes.

Simon: And you were on Master chef in 2021, so Wow. You’re a celebrity

Aaron: You may call it that, Im very long way down the alphabet to get to, where I stood.

Simon: I’d love to hear the story before Master Chef and then what prompted you to go into Master Chef. Can you tell us about that?

Aaron: Yeah, I kind of fell into cooking. I used to work at fast Food Chain and we sort of played around on night shifts and things like that in terms of, you know, what we could create with the ingredients that was in a fast food restaurant. And then, because I was on shift work, daytime TV had a very odd cooking shows on, and a love of Ready Steady Cook. A very old terrible show, but like, in terms of the format at the time, they literally, when I first started watching it, were only allowed to use what was in the bag. And so they’d get to the end tasting bit, and there was like this little tiny morsel that was made out of three ingredients that did not work at all and you’d see them taste it and be like, Hmm, yeah, that’s delicious.

Simon: Oh, is that the thing where they held up, show us a capsicum or show us a tomato at the end of it.

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the one.

Simon: Brilliant. Wow.

Aaron: So , I started my love of cooking from that show, funnily enough. And then, it sort of stemmed from there. And I was dating and I was like, wow, you know, I can, I can cook for a woman and see how that goes. And then that sort of had started to go nicely and I was like, actually, I think I really like cooking. And it just sort of came quite naturally to me as something I could do. And then I started to be like, actually, I think I just enjoyed this for myself. And kept learning and started following more chefs on social media and started buying a few cookbooks. And then, I never wanted to follow the rules for cooking though, so I’d look at something and be like, it’s kind of nice, but I feel like I could do something else to it. And that’s sort of where my just love and creativity came of it and I kept making things and they kept working out and so I kept testing my boundaries more and more. And I just started to really fall in love with cooking as my hobby., I mean, obviously the boom of cooking shows began. And my friend and I actually tried out for my kitchen rules a couple times and we made it through to the last round of the auditions twice.

Simon: Oh wow.

Aaron: We were ready to go. And they have a very different format and they kind of want you to be a persona. And at the time they had made a decision to make me a villain and I actually wasn’t okay with that. Yeah. And I think that might have been our reason for not getting on, but, I’m kind of glad it happened that way because Master Chef was, I think, where I wanted to be, but I just never felt good enough to do it. And the year of the 2021 season COVID had come along and was sitting in limbo and my relationship had just ended and I wasn’t enjoying my work. And I was like, you know what? I’m just going to apply. Let’s see what happens., and then it just kept rolling along and I never thought it was going to happen. And each step of the way I was like, holy crap, this is still, this is still looking like it’s a thing. And even my work we’re like, yeah, yeah, we’ll approve you to go away for a while. But not thinking it was actually going to happen. And then, next minute I’m on a plane to Melbourne and auditioning for my spot on the, on the show in front of the three judges. And yeah, it was, absolutely wild ride.

Simon: So, what were you doing for work before that? Were you in the cooking space or were you doing other type of work?

Aaron: No, I was an insurance manager. Yeah. I’ve been in insurance for the last 12 years now. Yeah. And yeah, it was just a, a need for a bit of a change. I wasn’t sort of feeling the challenge anymore. And yeah, my team was running really well and which was fantastic. I think it’s a good space to be in, but I sort of do like to continuously challenge myself and find something else I can be learning or trying.

Simon: So, you’re in Melbourne and, you’re auditioning in front of the judges, what was that experience like for you?

Aaron: It was very weird because the first dish that I presented, I actually got no and I had to cook again and it was a dish that I was sure was going to get me on the show. So, I hadn’t thought about, any secondary option and was just like, yep, this is it, this is my moment. And that it was very, like, you walk in and you don’t think anything of it, like everyone’s sort of all the same, we we’re walking in like, you know, we’re cooking something we love, and you walk into that room and you, it’s probably like 20, 30 metres down a path and the judges are just sitting at the end of this table just staring at you until you get to them and it, it becomes very daunting. And then you realize in this moment it’s like, this is what you love. And that 30 meters gives you so long to think about all the reasons why you’re there and you get to the end and you’re all of a sudden, just like I am emotional as hell from this, I have had far too long to think about this in that 30-metre walk. So, everything sort of unloads on you and yeah, it’s, you know, they, they probe you, they ask you those sorts of deep questions. They’ve spent a lot of time in the recruitment process to understand who you are and learn, learn about you, which I think is great., because it does, it does mean when they meet you for the first time, they don’t know you, but they know a little bit of you enough to ask some questions. That will really give you kind of like talking to a psychiatrist. You don’t ever feel like you’re going to say anything and then the moment you sit in front of them, it’s like word vomit, yeah. And that’s sort of the similar thing. So yeah, very daunting experience, but really good. But thoroughly enjoyed being there. But yeah, had no plan B and had to cook again on the second day, and went home in absolute panic.

Simon: So, what did you cook and what was the, second dish?

Aaron: The second dish I cooked was a duck dish. And, we. So, we sort of had the night that we finished filming that day. We have the night, cook and practice and have rushed to the markets to try and find some stuff. We had no idea what ingredients were going to be available to us either. We had no idea. So, I was banking on it being seasonal. and just went, right if it’s at the market, chances are it’s going to be in the kitchen. We went home, had a little play around in the kitchen. I’ve plated it up a dish, super happy with it, and I sent it to one of the other like guys who was auditioning, and I just get a response back, “don’t touch the plate. I’m coming down”. And I was like, “oh my God, what have I done?” And it was, so it was duck and cherries essentially and comes running down and he goes, “dude, you cannot plate that dish up like that”. I said, “what do you mean?” And I’ve put half a piece of duck down the middle of the plate. Mm-hmm., and then I’ve put cherries at the bottom and cherries at the bottom on the other side, and I’d literally plated a duck penis. So, I almost went on national TV, plating up a duck penis. Thankfully, thankfully they had come down and told me that maybe I needed to adjust the plating a little bit. And we went in the next day and they showed us what our options were, and sure enough, every ingredient I needed was in the pantry and I was like, oh, dreams have been made. I cooked my heart out and got an apron and away we

Simon: That must have been an amazing feeling to get that apron and be on the show. You’re living your dreams and doing this, talk us through like the next few weeks and, what you went through, the emotional and the physical aspects of being on the show and would you do anything differently or would you have done it all exactly the same?

Aaron: Yeah, well it was massive for us to even get there. So, the other Adelaide contestant, yo Yo and I, we flew out on the same day. Adelaide was actually going into lockdown. On the day we left and we got a phone call, so I was supposed to leave two days later than I did. But I got a phone call saying, your state’s going into lockdown. If I don’t get you out by three o’clock today, you can’t audition. And I was oh my God. So thankfully living nice and close to the airport, I was out of the city within two hours.

Simon: Wow.

Aaron: With my life packed up for what would be the next six and a half months. Yeah, it was very stressful. So, there was a lot of relief getting the apron and then it all happens sort of very quickly from there. You get straight into the cooking. It’s very long days filming especially when there’s the first 24 because they’ve got to taste everyone’s dish. And we cook for 90 minutes. Tasting takes like six and a half hours.

Simon: Wow.

Aaron: By the time it’s all said and done, it is a huge process. I feel for everyone on set. They such an amazing job, to stay up and about while we are all sulking behind the benches exhausted. But yeah, like it’s a lot of standing round. But it’s, it’s really cool to be in an environment of people who are very passionate about the same thing., but all with very different skills and very different versions of that passion. So having so much culture and diversity through the show, you’ve got amazing dessert cooks. You’ve got people who are very focused on native ingredients. You’ve got the Italian and those style cooks, you’ve got all of our Asian cuisines, and it’s just like next level. The food were tasting and trying is amazing. But it also adds a huge amount of pressure because you know that you love cooking, but so does everyone else here and they’re all here for the same reason. You are. There’s a big prize at the end of this. Yeah. So yeah, it’s, it’s a massive pressure cooker. You are around these people pretty much 24 7. It creates very quick friendships that feel like you’ve had them for years. Which is really nice. But it’s also very tense because you’re exhausted. Yeah. And you’re all there for the, that same reason. It’s, it’s pressure.

Simon: Can I ask the question that every person who’s ever watched Master Chef is how do you keep the food warm if tasting takes six hours?

Aaron: I can answer this only because Master Chef did put something out. So, we never feel bad about answering the question now. But basically, the way it’s done is you’ll see the judges walking around and tasting the food while we’re cooking it. They’ll also do that very quickly with what we didn’t plate up at the end of the cook. To allow them to taste it as hot and fresh as it was. Yeah. But they do the absolute best to try and keep the dish at its perfect temperature while they’re in the back area. But some of the dishes are tasted cold.

Simon: Okay.

Aaron: They’ve, acknowledged that it is just part of it. If there’s 24 people waiting, it is a process. We all get to go up there. We get to have our conversation. They take extra photos to make sure you’ve captured that best version of it. And then you have a chart. They do the taste, they clean down and make sure everyone’s sort of, you know, sorted and then we reset everything. So, each, each one takes 25, 30 minutes.

Simon: Yeah.

Aaron: Potentially. And so, yeah, it does take a long time. And then people obviously have to have breaks. That is a very daunting process too, because if you are the last person tasted in 24 people and that decision is whether or not you are eliminated or into an elimination and you might not have thought you had a great cook, then you are standing there that whole time just panicked

Simon: yeah. I was just thinking that what happened if you accidentally drew that last straw and, you are the last one, on the rake.

Aaron: Yeah. Yep. And they never, they never did it in any order so like occasionally we’d work out the order as it was sort of going, and then the very next day they’d literally just be like, random and so you’d be like, you had no idea, like you had the person standing next to you could have been the first person tasted and you could be the last, yeah.

Simon: Wow. Wow.

Cooking is my passion

Simon: So, you love food and food’s a big part of your life, what does food actually mean to you? if you look deep into your soul, what’s food mean to you?

Aaron: Yeah. Well, food, food’s, my release It’s very much what is my passion. It keeps me happy at the end of the day, but I’ve always questioned whether or not I wanted it as a job or if I enjoy it as my release still. So, I obviously, I still have a job. I’m still working in insurance. And if I’ve had a bad day coming home and putting some music on, grabbing a glass of wine and having a cook is what recenters me. So, I don’t want to ruin what makes me happy by potentially putting myself in a situation where it becomes a job rather than an enjoyment. Yeah. So, I think that’s where it sits for me as I have a deep passion for being able to be creative in that space and I rarely make the same thing twice. I’m very bad at writing down my recipes, which is not great for when I do content creation because trying to remember what I put in something is half the battle.

Simon: Yeah.

Aaron: Thankfully my lovely partner, she now sits in the kitchen with me and writes down what I’m doing so that I don’t forget. Wonderful.

Life after MasterChef

Simon: So, what happened after master Chef? When we first connected, I knew like you were doing great food on Instagram and all this type of stuff, but then I saw your mental health stuff come through. I’m like, okay, now you’ve really piqued my interest because I’m big in that mental health space as well. And I remember reading up that you wanted to do a food channel and promote South Australia, like it’s a great food and wine place, but then obviously Covid was impacting that. Can you talk us through what your plans for were for after Master Chef and, and what happened?

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah. So came back from a master chef. It, it’s, it’s a weird scenario because you don’t know when you’re going home. So, you, you don’t want to spend your time there planning because you need to be focused on the cooking. But then you finish and then you’ve got, however, wherever position you finished kind of gives you an indication of how much time you have to plan. Because you can’t go out into the world and like announce yourself until you’re finished on there. It’s, kind of ruins the magic of tv. And I actually, while I finished 11, I only still had a short turnaround because the top 10 wraps up their filming process quite quickly. But my best mate, he was really interested in, you know, also picking something up on the side. He’d just had his first child, and, was trying to find himself a bit more of a hobby, sort of got himself into a bit of film editing and we had spoken about promoting everything South Australia. I’m very passionate about the state. I love what we do here. I love that everything is within 20 minutes.

Simon: Yeah.

Aaron: Which just, it just makes everything so accessible. And my dad lives on York Peninsula. Go get fresh seafood whenever I want. It’s, yeah, it’s a perfect part of the world. So, we wanted to highlight that. And highlight the amazing producers we had. South Australia’s become really focused on, I guess you’d call it, I want to say it’s farm to table, but it’s almost farm to consumer. and the middlemen are being removed at every possible point and you can get some of the best produce directly from the person who’s growing it. And it was really great to hear their stories. And the idea was that we would meet with local producers, they would share with us how they got into their field, how it’s their passion, and then use their produce to show people how they can cook beautiful dish at home. And started off great. We were getting great engagement. We had heaps of people wanting to work with us. We’d booked a number of jobs and a number of, sort of really like really great exposures for South Australia, but that were going to allow us to keep expanding as well.

The challenges of Covid

Aaron: And then Covid re reared its ugly head.

Simon: Yep.

Aaron: And every day we were having a cancellation sent through to us and it took a massive toll. We were both still working full-time, so we were doing this around full-time jobs. And yeah, next minute we had lost, I think it was in the vicinity of 10 grand of work in a week that wasn’t being rebooked because of the uncertainty of covid. And that left us really deflated. We were both sort of feeling the pain of that, the effort we’d put in to get to that point was a lot of our own time, a lot of our own money. We were both exhausted and feeling like we’d sort of made it out the other side and it was now going to start seeing the fruits of the Labor. So, for it to break at that point, probably left us both feeling very deflated. And South Australia stayed in a state of, I guess you call it partial lockdown. for probably close to six months where masks were required in every, every sort of area. And we were filming with people in shops when we started this. We couldn’t do that. We didn’t have the money to set up for that sort of filming, and you just, you couldn’t hear someone with a mask on. So, everything ground to a halt. And it didn’t help that I was still seeing everyone else being able to film their content because outside of South Australia, the other states had adopted that Covid was going to be a thing and they just needed to live with it.

Simon: Yeah. Wow. So, you parked the idea or did you just completely abandon it?

Aaron: We parked it for the time. At the moment, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to revisit it. We’ve both had a few big shifts in our life that have probably meant that it’s a little bit difficult. My mate’s kid is now, I think he’s almost two. and he is obviously very active and needing a lot of hands-on time was a lot easier when he was just a little potato baby. He didn’t need, didn’t need anything. Just sat around and we could work around him. So, it doesn’t sort of work as easy now, but we’re not opposed to revisiting it, it’s just we have to make sure that it’s not going to hit another hurdle because that was probably the biggest thing for us.

Simon: Yeah. Wow. So, you’ve had a few big years now. I remember back in August when we’re teeing up this interview you had on Instagram your involvement in the heart on the sleeve movement. And you really opened up about your mental health challenges that came from COVID, I think I remember saying you had like one mask on for the socials and then off between the different posts and the different videos. It was completely different.

My mental health story

Simon: Can you tell us a bit about your mental health story, and what’s happened and how mental health has showed up in your life, and what some of the things that, you went through?

Aaron: Yeah. Yep. Definitely. I first developed depression in, I think I was about 22, so I’m 36 now. So, 14 years ago I was working in a job that was, had turned into a very unhealthy situation. I was only working three till 11 shifts, which meant that I never saw my partner who worked seven till three. So literally I’d get home, she was already asleep. She’d get up and go to work and I was still sleeping from the night before. was very unhealthy. Didn’t see my family because obviously working nights and it spiralled out control pretty badly. At that time, I didn’t know much about mental health, so I didn’t really understand what was happening to me. But it went backwards very quickly. To the point I found myself completely out control of my life. Didn’t know what I was doing, had no drive and was Yeah, not, not being able to treat the people around me the way I wanted to., I was closed off to everyone. I made excuses for not being there because I just couldn’t put a face on. And it took a lot of, I probably didn’t go about it in a way I would recommend to people because it took a lot to get me out of it. But I spent a lot of time learning about what was actually upsetting me and what the triggers were in those moments.

Simon: Yeah.

Aaron: And that was sort of my way out. And then I put my focus back into my health and fitness. So, at the time I think I was well over a hundred kilos doing absolutely nothing apart from working and eating fast food all the time. And yeah, was probably the, the unfitest I’ve ever been. And so yeah, pour my focus into my fitness and then that sort of gave me a, an out, and then I was able to, learn all about the different emotions that impacted me, and then the triggers that impacted me each day. And that was my, that was my start point.

Simon: Yeah. You said you didn’t know; it was a mental health issue. What was the prompt that made you kind of realize it was, or how did you work through that?

Aaron: I did. I, so I went and saw my doctor. I, I got to a point where I was just, I was sitting down and I’d just be sitting, watching TV and I’d just burst into tears. I was like, I can’t, I’m so unhappy. Like, I don’t, I don’t want to be a part of this anymore. I don’t, this isn’t the life that I saw for myself and I feel so isolated yet most of the isolation I was doing myself. But then I feel like no one wanted me around yet. I was putting myself in the situation of not being around anyone. And so, it’s when your mind starts to trick yourself. It’s a horrible place to be. And it’s, it’s not easy to get out of, but I went to my doctor and spoke to him about it. And back then the first answer was medication. And I didn’t want to do that. I didn’t want to put anything in my body. And so, I made the decision to tackle it myself and use that point as acknowledging that my head is not right. But there is nothing wrong with me that my head is playing tricks on me and that a lot of this is out of my control, but within my control.

Simon: Yeah. And did that work, taking it upon yourself to do it?

Aaron: Yeah, look like it took, I’d say it probably took a good seven, eight months, but I learned a lot about emotional intelligence through it. And understanding that it’s not just happy, sad, angry, scared. There’s a raft of other things that fall inside of that that can trigger and cause issues. And think the one thing that I appreciated from it all was the learnings that I took in terms of how I can help others around me when they’re suffering. And what are some small, helpful little things that you can do in a day today that will allow someone the freedom to actually escape that thought process of, I’m not worth it, I’m not valued, I’m not wanted. So yeah, it, it, it took a very long time, but I actually have a big tattoo that runs all the way around my chest and my back and it says, the world will tell you who you are until you tell the world. And that just reminds me every day to stand up for myself and not allow what other people think of me to dictate who I am.

Simon: Yeah. And how hard was it to talk to your GP about what was going on?

Aaron: It was very difficult. My probably saving Grace is that it had been our family GP for like 15 years. So, he knew me very well. And he always did give that bit of extra time. I think the, the hard buck bit with going to a GP is that, you know, you go to GP for a cold and they push you out the door in three seconds with script and there is that perceived behaviour with mental health as well that Okay. Yep. Here take this and you’ll feel better and out the door. So, it is a difficult conversation to have because you dunno if you’re going to hear that response you need, but he was really good and he’d given me the options. But it was the option I didn’t want to take. And that, that old school thought process of men not talking and putting on a brave face was still very prevalent in my life and probably drove me to delve inwards first instead of seeking probably the help I could have got quicker. But I look back and go, I’m glad I did what I did because I was able to learn about it, not just fix it.

Simon: Prior to that, like, was mental health discussions anything you’d ever been a part of, in your family or at school with your mates? Or was it just not talked about?

Aaron: Not at all. You know, there was still that, that very masculine behaviour of, you know, toughen up like, you know, don’t act like a girl, boys don’t cry that business. And it’s like you are always putting on a brave face. I wasn’t like, I was probably in that behaviour too, not realizing there was anything wrong with it. But it, it is, it’s a, it’s a new world to be around and there’s a lot of things that people don’t realize are impacting someone on a daily basis. And, and social media is the perfect example of that. And that is why I wanted to share that story in August and why I was so grateful to be involved in that platform because, we all sit there and look at these people on social media and go, they are just living the best life. And it’s, it’s not like it’s, some are, I’ve got no doubt. Some are, that is exactly what they wanted to do and it’s perfect for them. But when you are trying to turn that into something that could potentially be a living or you are trying to get work from it, even just as a side hustle, there’s a lot of pressure on that to be done right. And yeah, to be that face that the business or the company is looking for, it’s very rare that the face they’re asking for is the one that you are hiding.

Simon: it’s funny you say that because, as we speak, I am mentally and physically and emotionally exhausted. So, I’ve got Mindful men, obviously the Mindful Men Instagram page is one of my main platforms, and this is where Mindful Men started. But I made a commitment this week because it’s Queensland Mental Health Week and it’s also been World Mental Health Day. And it’s actually also, it was O c d Awareness International O.C.D Awareness Week as well. So, I made a commitment, I was going to drop five episodes of the podcast this week, but I only got through three because of the editing and all the posting and all that. And I got to a point where I’ve even had to cancel a few other appointments, like guests’ ones where I’m a guest on other podcasts. Cause I just couldn’t physically do it anymore. And I was just, you know, everyone might be looking at my Instagram this week, particularly on my LinkedIn, my Facebook going, wow, Simon’s on top of the world is just pumping out stuff. But I’ve literally got the matchstick holding my eyes open. I’m going to bed exhausted; I’m waking up exhausted. And I’m glad you talked about that because right now I feel like shit. You know?

Aaron: Yep. Well world like, world Mental Health Day was what was it, Tuesday? I think I’m, yeah. Well, I’ve been sick as, I’ve been really sick for probably the last two weeks. Had a horrible throat infection and I actually wanted to do a big video for the day and I was pretty much asleep until about eight o’clock. I had no voice. You can still hear I’m a little bit husky on the on the chat now, but it was, yeah, like it was burnout. So, I’ve a hundred percent feel you and you want to put everyone else ahead of yourself in those moments. You are not the best version of yourself, so you can’t do that.

Simon: Yeah. And you got to, you got to know when to draw the line and say, enough enough. I’ve got to, I’ve got to rest now. because yeah, I was feeling, yeah. Burnt out again. I’ve been through burnout before and I’m like, I was really worried about going through it again and like, because of, of how bad it was last time. But yeah, so I’ve just cancelled a few appointments, and you are the only one today. So, I’ve had, another one booked, I’m like, nah, I’m only going to focus on Aaron and that’s it. And then I’m taking the day off the tech, so.

Aaron: Ah, thank you man. I appreciate that. No, no, I appreciate for sharing it as well. Like it’s, it’s, it’s a big deal. Like people just, we’re all expected to be out there and putting on a brave face and being happy and it’s one of those interesting things you, you say to someone, how are you? And you expect them to say, yeah, I’m good. Yeah. And when they say to you, I’m not okay. You dunno what to do next. And that’s something because we’ve, we’ve hid behind sharing bad things for so long is not okay that no one knows how to respond to them when you do.

Simon: Yeah, definitely. And particularly, we grew up in a, in a similar neck to the woods as well. And I often reflect on the last few podcasts I’ve been on is growing up in the eighties and nineties and northern suburbs of Adelaide. It was, you know, our household was a sports focused household, so Aussie rules, footy, athletics, basketball, soccer backyard cricket for hours. And then, during the summer and, and it was like in a, in a household of four boys plus dad, it was, toughen up, dusted off, don’t fall down, don’t cry, don’t all this, do this other stuff. And, and I remember being in a schoolyard in primary school and my mate was crying in the yard. And, and I said, I went up to him, I went into this automatic. Boys don’t cry mode. I’m like, cause that’s what I knew. And I’m like, no, you got to stop crying. Boys don’t cry. And he is like, Simon, I can cry if I want to. And it was a really powerful moment for me. Planted a seed for me that I’ve held onto ever since about what does masculinity mean and what does men’s health mean and mental health. I didn’t know what these things were until in my late thirties I’ve really held onto that. I’m like, you know what? He was right. Everything I’d been learning up until eight to 10 years old. Maybe it wasn’t true. I mean, it might have been true for that period of time in that location in northern suburbs of Adelaide, but the more and more I talk about it with guys across the world is actually something that’s happened across the world. You know, it’s in a time before social media and time before, yeah. Broadband internet, like the old dial up and, when we used to download South Park images of, you know, and it used to go do, do Down the screen but yeah, it’s in a, time before people could just go on their smartphone and look up, these are the symptoms I’ve got. You know, what is this? Yeah. And yeah, we’d never talked about it. It’s probably only thought the last 10 years that I’ve noticed the media talking about it. I noticed news articles talking about mental health as well. But even like four or five years ago, I was in the workplace, and you started hearing about this concept called doona Days, and I’m like, I’ve never heard about this before. And then all of a sudden It clicked into mental health day. And I remember ringing my boss one day. I said, I need a, a mental health day. I need one of these days. Cause I was struggling and she’s like, Simon, thanks so much for being honest with me. Yeah, take the day, come back in tomorrow. So, I did that, but then the week after, like we had a team meeting and she said, oh, mental health days aren’t an excuse to have a day off, you know? And I was like, where did this come from? And so even, and that was only five, five maybe six years ago, but this happened. So, I think we still got a long way in mental health discussions to, you know, we do have the, are you Okay day? Which I like to think it’s more of an everyday thing as opposed or a once-a-year thing and, and World Mental Health Day and Queensland Mental Health Week this week. But I think, the more and more and more we can talk about it, the more we can normalize it. And then doona days or mental health days are a perfectly reasonable excuse, to take the day off of work, I guess particularly after covid when we’re all been working from home or trying to, if we can. And also juggling family and, I was studying at the, the same time as working and family and dealing with my own mental illness too. So, I’m really happy that you’re talking about this from a, a bloke’s perspective, but also someone from my neck of the woods. It’s really nice to talk to someone from Adelaide. But, depression, did that keep going through your life or did you stomp it on the head or does it keep coming up and down, what’s it look like since then?

Aaron: It’s been interesting cause I was; I was adamant that I had it knocked on the head and that I had all the answers for this moving forward when I was probably, I think I was about 26. And was like, yep, I am on the up and up. I’m the fittest I’ve been, I’ve got all the happiness in the world that I want, and any challenge that comes my way, I can tackle it. So, I went overseas for a work trip and on the way back I got D.V.T and I ended up in hospital for, I think it was 12 days with four clots surrounding my heart. And was extremely lucky to still be here. But it put all the things that I had put in place to tackle my mental health completely on hold. Because I was on blood thinners and I wasn’t allowed to be in the kitchen cooking by myself. for risk of cutting and bleeding out.

Simon: Yep.

Aaron: Wasn’t allowed to do more than five minutes of walking for the first six months of my rehab because the clots Weren’t completely gone. And if I overexerted, I was at risk of moving one straight to my heart.

Simon: Yep.

Aaron: Which then impacted every way of my body moving. I could have done a lot more, but my feet went flat. So, then I used to be a sprinter, couldn’t run couldn’t run more than 200 metres before it felt like every muscle was trying to tear itself out of my body, because all my alignment had moved. And it started spiralling back because all of the things I’d put in place to stop those negative things were all coming back because I couldn’t do those things. Which was very difficult. So, what it did teach me was that, while I might have found ways to help combat my mental health, it doesn’t mean I fixed it for life. And that it’s a constant thing to work on. And no different to, I guess if you talk about working on your physical fitness if you stop working on your physical fitness, your body will start to go backwards. You will lose those strengths. You will lose those flexibilities. All of those changes. The same is for your mind. If you stop working on your mind, it will go backwards. You will lose those controls you put in place and the thoughts creep back in and the horrible voices and things like that will come back because you are not working on it. So, what I have learned is that it is a constant, workable piece of your body, no different to your muscles. And that if you don’t keep working on your mental health, it will come back. Yeah. So that’s sort of my, my learnings from that has been, you know, I need to make sure I keep on top of this. I need to make sure I keep talking about it with the right people, and I need to make sure that I don’t let it consume me again. So, yeah. It is, it’s a, it’s a constant learning.

Treating mental health

Simon: Yeah. You mentioned before you didn’t want to go on meds, and I remember before I went into the doctor, Office the first time. I was one of those guys similar, I didn’t want to be a guy that was taking medication every day. It was like a bit of a stigma for me and, and it felt like a bit of a shame, but eventually I did go onto the meds, and get the stuff. Did you ever change your perception around medication or are you still not on medication?

Aaron: I’m still not on medication. I also had Crohn’s through that as well, which was fun. So yeah. Ok. That was another point in time where my life just stopped dead in all the things I wanted to do, my body could not do. And one of the treatments, so I think probably one of the reasons why I never went on to medication is I was on so much medication for so long. And I just didn’t want to add anything into that. One of the treatments for Crohn’s is a medication that can mimic the same chemical makeup in your brain that depression. And I got that straight away. So yeah. I was only able to be on that drug for a very short period of time. It was working for my Crohn’s, but it was putting me into a completely depressive state that I had no control over. Wow. So, I’ve always, it, it’s, I know that medication is a fantastic way of working with your mental health and there is certainly, I see the benefits of it. It’s just never been one for me. And I think that’s, I’m okay with that. because I’ve been able to continue to work on it and I’ve been able to continue to learn and I haven’t found myself in a position where that’s got too far. But I think if I did, I would certainly explore the option.

Simon: Yeah. So, so what’s been some of the other things that you have done? Have you done therapy or you focused on fitness? what’s been your approach to managing your mental.

Aaron: My biggest thing has been learning, So I haven’t done therapy. But I’ve gone through the processes of learning about key triggers and what can impact your brain, what also gives you those happy endorphins and what cannot trick your body, but what you can do when a trigger happens. So, for a period of time, and it wasn’t my healthiest moment, but for a period of time when I found myself in an anxious situation where I didn’t know what to do or couldn’t engage with a group of people, I would revert to my phone for a moment and just block the noise out and that was able to re-centre me and then I could go back to the conversation and feel okay. It wasn’t great because people thought I was disengaging from it., but it meant that I was actually able to reengage. Finding those little things like that. Trying to. Make sure that I communicate to my partner anytime we’re going somewhere where I can feel myself beforehand getting anxious about the situation rather than going, let’s see how I go., I have that conversation straight away and say, I’m actually feeling anxious about the situation we’re going into. I want to bring it to your attention because I may need your support a little more than I would normally. Yeah. And maybe we can go into this and make sure we stay close together. So that if I feel anxious, I’ve got you there as support. And she’s fantastic with it. And what it’s created is a really good open dialogue for both of us to do that. In terms of saying, I don’t know who I’m around, I may be perfectly fine, but just to bring it to your attention so you can keep an eye out for me. And knowing that person is there nine times out 10 means. I don’t actually feel anxious in this situation because I’ve already communicated how I may feel. And so, communication was a massive thing for me. Being able to share vulnerable moments and being perfectly fine with how, how someone might react to that was also crucial. But just knowing that I’d brought it to their attention was important because then the thought in my head of what if, what are they thinking? What are they saying was gone because I’d made it clear how I felt.

Simon: Yeah. I love those two points that you made., I feel like knowledge is power and when we inform ourselves about what’s going on. So, I found that particularly with my obsessive-compulsive disorder and would when I got diagnosed by a psychologist, Things started to make sense. I go, okay, this is what it is. There’s a name for what I’m experiencing. And then from there, yeah, over the years learning about that, and I haven’t really started really learning until probably my mid to thirties when I started my social work degree and started going, okay, I’ve got these labels. I know what it feels like to live with them from a lived experience perspective, but let’s look at the, some of the theory and stuff behind that as well and some of the therapies. So, my approach is, is therapy, medication, knowledge. But what you are showing, you are highlighting here is that that doesn’t have to be the way for everybody. And so, medication doesn’t have to be the way and, and therapy doesn’t have to be the way you can do things like knowledge. And I love this concept around communication as well. So, we often don’t talk about our mental health because we’re ashamed or we feel stigma or, we’re not around people that we can have that honest dialogue with, but when you meet people and you have people in your life that you can have an honest chat about it, it makes things feel so much easier and so much more manageable as well. So, I love those two points that you’ve highlighted, but what about sport and food though? Like, do they form part of your, your mental health, management as well?

Aaron: Massively. Yep. Yep. Food for me, yeah. Like if I’ve, if I’ve had a bad week, I’ll literally like tell my partner, I’m like, I need to go to the shops. I need to cook. I’m going to put some music on. We’re going to have a day of food. She never complains because she gets fed. We normally have a beautiful feast, but it is, it’s that, it’s that reset for me and it’s, it’s doing something that makes me happy. And I can come back to it and go, yep, that was, that was what I needed. I, I needed that reset. And, and same with sport, especially through summer. In summer I will spend a lot of time down the beach on a paddleboard.

Simon: Yep.

Aaron: Just floating around in my own head, but in a good way, just thinking about all the reasons why this is so good. Yeah. You know, the beaches on Adelaide are amazing and I can be paddling along the foreshore at Glenelg and see stingrays, crabs’ fish everything and anything and just completely drift off into that moment and enjoy it for what it is. And then catch myself dinner and come home.

Simon: Nice. Nice. Growing up in Adelaide myself, and it’s so hot in summer, so to be down at the beach. It’s just a really nice place to be in those hot summer Adelaide. I mean, I remember when I left Adelaide it, I think we had two weeks on of three weeks on of 40 plus days. And I was working at Bunnings at the time. And it was in one of those old school bunnings at Windsor Gardens where there had no air conditioning.

Aaron: It was old big shed,

Simon: It was a tin shed. And finished the uni degree and packed up my little Mitsubishi Mirage and off, off I went to Canberra. Which is probably just as hot as Adelaide, maybe just a little bit less hot. So

Aaron: just that horrible dry heat. It’s so draining. Yeah. So it is, it’s good. I must admit, being from the, northern suburbs and moving to the beach side of town has been a massive godsend for me because summer, Like, I’m, I’m seven minutes from the beach. I can have the car packed up in the driveway. I live 600 meters from my workplace. I can be home in five minutes and down the beach in another 10 and be on the paddle board after work. And it’s, it’s a very good life.

Simon: Yeah. It’s a good lifestyle and yeah, and perfect for mental health maintenance as well. So yeah mate, I’ve really enjoyed our chat today, but, a couple more questions and I’ll let you go for your day. Of course.

What’s next for Aaron

Simon: So, what’s next for you, mate? what’s, in the pipeline? Have you got something in mind or you just going to keep on doing what you’re doing at the moment?

Aaron: At the moment it’s a bit of a bit of a treading water, so I am working on a bit more content creation and working with companies to promote what they have a bit more across Australia at the moment just while Adelaide and South Australia is still coming out of their shell. Everyone is still a little nervous here to do too many big things. But I am looking to do a popup with one of the local cafes around here. I’ve actually got to go catch up with them later today and see what we can do there. But it’s still cooking focused, but also with a focus on men’s mental health. I’ve been given a bit more of a platform to push that, and I really want to do it because I want to break down this stigma and I want guys to be okay to talk to each other and not just say, yeah man, I’m good. Like just, you know, feeling great and walk away from that going, why did I say that? Why did I not just go, nah man, I’m really struggling at the moment. I’d love to go for a beer and have a chat. Yeah. Or, you know, go kick the footy and, you know, talk about our day and I don’t see why we can’t do that. So, I want to keep pushing that and I want to keep, it will be uncomfortable, but that will be okay. Because we are coming out of the, I guess a period of isolation. Covid created isolation for everyone. And so, in a time of reconnect, let’s do it differently. Let’s ask those questions. How are you really? Like, but be ready to answer. I’m not okay. And just put yourself in that position and just listen if that’s what they need, just listen. If they want solutions, then you can help. But start with just listening.

Simon: Yeah, I love that. I really do. As we said, the more we have these kinds of conversations on podcasts and stuff like that, the more it can help other guys listen and go, yep, I can talk about this. You know, these two guys have been doing it so I can do it too.

Aaron: We, we have a rule in our house, and that’s a real, I, I feel like it’s a really good way of starting a conversation with someone who’s had a bad day. Do you want support or do you want solutions, Mm. I like that because then going into that conversation, the other person knows, because there’s times where you just want to vent. Yep. And don’t want someone to try and fix that. And if someone tries to fix your vent, then you actually end up more frustrated. Yes. So, we make this rule to go to say that at the start, and then that way the other person knows what their support in that actually is. Do they just need to sit there and listen and hear you out and you feel better at the end of that? Or do you actually need their help to find the solution to your problem? And it works really well.

Simon: That’s wonderful. Yeah, I love that. I’m going to adopt that in our household and in the work that I do, so mate, how do people follow you if they’re, keen to, watch what you’re doing in the content creation space? Do you have a website or is it mainly on socials? Where, where can they find you?

Aaron: Pretty focused on my socials it at the moment. So, my Instagram is my one source of truth. Sanders 25 is my Instagram. You will see lots of food and you’ll see lots of me talking about my day and how I’m actually feeling. There won’t be any hiding. It will be raw sometimes. So it is, it is that case. I don’t want people to see, and I don’t want to go back to what I had to share in August differently of me saying, I hid from you all for so long. I want to show you what’s going on. And I want people to see social media for what it really is, and it’s a way for us to connect.

Simon: Social media world is amazing on the front that you can share so much, so quickly. But we only share our happiness a lot of the time, and that can be negative. But if we can share these types of things, we can reach more people Yeah. On a greater basis. So yeah. Love it., I’ll put the link in the show notes so that people can click on that if they want to check you out. And thank you. I highly recommend it. I salivate every time you put a photo up about food, because I’m a terrible cook. But and I actually had to stop watching Master Chef at one stage because it was just making me too hungry after dinner.

Aaron: Oh man. It’s a very, very talented group of people they get every year and it, it’s amazing some of the stuff they can come up with.

Aarons’ recommendation

Simon: Yeah. Yes, I a hundred percent feel you on that one. Last question mate, and then I’ll let you go., is something for you to, plug something that makes you feel good? And it doesn’t have to be food or mental health related, but it can be if you want. Just something to pay it forward for, our listeners, if they’re looking for maybe something you’re listening to or reading or watching or self-care or anything you want, you can plug it.

Aaron: Ooh. So, I was trying to put a lot of thought into this one. Probably for me, and this is because this is something I’m really trying to get my focus back into and I was doing such a good job of it, and then I kind of lost my way a little bit. But I really want people to try and think about genuinely asking someone how they are once a week. and not expecting anything in return to just check on someone and say, how are you going? Give yourself at least 10 minutes for a response. That is not, I’m okay. Because I found that such a great bonding experience and such a great way to start really good conversations. And I’m really putting some focus back into doing that because not everyone is comfortable approaching someone to say they’re not okay. But if someone’s genuinely giving you their time, I think that opens up more of the opportunity for that conversation to start and you have no idea how helpful that could be to someone on a bad day.

Thankyou

Simon: I love it. Sounds fantastic, mate., and I mentioned before that I was feeling pretty shit and I’d cancelled a few things, but after this conversation, I feel fantastic now., I’m ready for my day. So, I’m really grateful for having this chat with you and holding space for each other, and hearing your story, but also, I’m, I’m keen to it to see how you grow in the future and where you go to next.

Aaron: Thank you. I really appreciate that. I feel the same. I’ve got a big day planned and I now really feel like I can go out and tackle it, so it’s been a great conversation.

Simon: Thanks, mate.

Aaron: Thank you.

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