Simon: G’Day guys, and welcome to another episode of the Mindful Man Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne and today we’re getting mindful about addiction and mental health and how creativity can help us heal.

And a trigger warning, we are talking about things like addiction and mental health today. So if you do get triggered by these discussions, feel free to skip this episode, that’s perfectly okay. But if you do stick around and you do get triggered, please reach out to your support networks afterwards, whether it’s a family member or a friend or a licensed professional as well. And joining me for this discussion, I’ve got Skip Sams from Chicago USA, how you going skip?

Skip: It’s Winter . It’s the end of October, but yet it’s starting winter but I’m good. I’m well.

Simon: Wonderful. I love your name. Skip Sams, it is such a cool name, I’ve never come across a skip before. So this is my first entry into somebody called Skip. Where does that name come from?

Skip: Well, it’s short for Skipper.

Simon: Skipper. Cool. So a nautical theme in the family?

Skip: Yeah, I never knew until I was like four years old that I had another name, but I’m named after both of my grandfathers and they didn’t wanna choose one name over the other. So they called me Skipper. And yeah, they still do.

Simon: What a cool story.

Skip: If you would call me, if you would call me Lawrence, you would have to say it like three or four times before I realize you’re, you’re talking to me.

Simon: So your name’s Lawrence.

Skip: Lawrence Paul, yeah.

Simon: Ah, cool. So I love Skip, what a cool name, what a cool story as well. I love it. Now Skip, you’re a recovery and success coach, a composer, singer and actor as well. And we’re gonna be exploring all this and I’m really keen to hear your story around how creativity, forms a big part of your life, so let’s start off with a bit about you. Can you tell us,where you grew up and some of your backstory and particularly what got you into the music and the arts?

Skip: Alright, well I am originally from Columbus, Ohio. It’s mid-size Midwest city. And I started to sing when I was like three years old. My dad’s a minister, so I instantly was able to get the spotlight and center stage whenever I wanted to sing, even at three. And I was up there singing and people laughed and they cheered and clapped and, I was hooked . SoI was singing, from that, that early age. And I started tap dancing when I was like five. We used to take my sisters to ballet. I was like three, four years old and my mom and I were sitting off to the side, but the class before my sister’s ballet was a tap class. And I would always tug on my mom’s arm, like, I wanna do that, I wanna do that. And she’s like, when you’re five . So then that led into throughout my childhood, into my teen years, I started singing more and more. I’ve been singing like semi-pro when I was in high school, mostly religious and that’s very interesting, all that phase because I was growing up in the church, loving to sing and loving to sing in church and then at around 11 years old, I started to figure out I’m gay. . So that was singing for church on one hand, and then figured out I’m gay. It was just like two separate lives at the age of 11, 12 years old. I started to like learn to lie and live a double life. But the whole time I’m sitting there praying, God, don’t let me be gay, don’t let me be gay. And this is also the time of, lets see, this is like the late seventies and going into the early eighties. So about the time I’m hitting puberty, I’m figuring, you know, I’m wanting to do right for God and I’m also figuring out I’m gay. And then on top of that, here comes the AIDS crisis. So, you know, there’s just a lot of shit going on . And I started throwing up, I started bulimia when I was like 16 years old because I wanted some form of control of what was going on. And that went on for a few years. And I went to Bible college for a year and a half. And after my third semester at Bible college, my girlfriend told me to move to Los Angeles and come out of the closet. My girlfriend! So that’s what I did. I moved to, not because she said it, but I went there to music school. And it was kind of like a decision, am I gonna be authentic or am I going to try to conform to this religion that I’m told God loves you, but you’re going to hell. Right? And I chose authenticity for me, but that also meant even though I was pursuing music, my purpose of it, a lot of it was gone because I was doing it partially for the God that I understood. But I was also doing it for, if I do it good enough, God will save me and not let me be gay. You know, so there was a lot of stuff going on up there. So when I was 19 and I’m out in Los Angeles at school, somebody introduced me to cocaine and margaritas on the same night. And that was like, oh, that’s what’s gonna fill this hole. I was like the bulimia. I didn’t even need that anymore. I had my drugs and my alcohol and my music studies. I kept studying music and I loved it. didn’t even believe I was like, worth being a good musician. Not that I wasn’t worth the benefits of it. I was like, I’m not even worthy of being a good musician, the purpose I had for it before it was gone. So that’s when addiction really set in. And that went on for 20 years my friend.

Simon: Wow.

Skip: 20 years. And I would get a little bit of success in my career and then I would sabotage. I would get a little success and then I’d sabotage, I’d get a little more success and then I would really sabotage and, the greater I went up, the further I went down in the crash. And actually I was just talking to a friend about this. It was 2002, the end of October, right about this time, 20 years ago. I had started to get on crystal meth and I had been on meth for not too long. I had been a drinker, a pot smoker, cocaine occasionally when somebody introduced me to meth, I was like, this is my cure. It’s gonna cure my alcoholism cuz I don’t even want to drink anymore. And I was buying so much and I started to get it for some friends that my dealer one day said, “you know, skip, there’s a way that you can do this and not have to pay for it”. . Andhe was basically telling me how to sell it. So I’m going down Lakeshore Drive one day. It’s a beautiful, clear blue sky day. Everything’s bright orange with the trees and the sun is just like glowing. It’s like 4:30 and it’s already starting to set, you know, it’s that kind of fall day. And I’m looking around and I see everything beautiful my thought was, I’m gonna close my recording studio and, and become a crystal meth dealer. It was, that clear. I remember it, I remember what building I was looking at when it happened, it was that clear of a thought. And I just thought that was gonna be so cool. And my recording studio at that time was in the loop ,down in the business district of Chicago. I wasn’t rich, I wasn’t famous, but I had an up and coming career, I had a record label, I had my first national artist. I was having artists from all over the city come and have me produce their stuff and I gave it up. And I did that for three years. . And three years later I was at the point where I was suicidal and I was so lonely. And even though I had people around me all the time, a lot of addicts. At that point, my family had left me, my partner had kicked me out, understandably. But I realised today they didn’t leave me, I abandoned them. My partner kicked me out because, he didn’t want anything to do with it. I used to think he abandoned me. I realise today I abandoned all this stuff. I abandoned my music. It wasn’t taken away from me. And so I was at the point where I had nothing and I woke up one morning and I just had this thought,’ just go do it’. Today is the day the pain ends. Just go throw yourself in front of the “L” Which is what we, you know, our subway, we call it the “L”, I visualized it. I saw it and I was going to do it. And that day, I had another thought. . And as soon as I had the thought of, just go do it, let the pain in. I was 39 and I thought, ‘you’re gonna be 40 years old, you fucked up the last 20 years of your life and you’ve sabotaged everything. Just go do it. And with that came, another thought after that was, ‘well, wait a minute. If you’ve fucked up the last 20 years, why don’t you do something the next 20 years? And then you can like, kind of make up for that. Right. And you could be 60 and 60 is not that old anymore.

Simon: No it’s not.

Skip: Oh. If you lived to be 60, you could be 80′. . Now, this was 2006, I was diagnosed with H I V in 2007 and I really did not see my life past 40. And that had always been that way. That wasn’t because of the H I V. I knew at that point in 2006 we had medications and we knew that H I V was not a death sentence anymore. Right. But it, it’s still traumatic to find out. But when I had that thought at 40 that, ‘wow, I could live to be 80’, just as clear as the thought was, ‘I’m gonna close my studio to be a drug dealer’. The thought came on this day, ‘skip your life doesn’t have to be over. It could be half over’. . And that’s the thought that got me to stop. I had tried before, but I tried to stop for my partner. So he had let me back, you know? I tried to stop, but you know, different reasons, but none of ’em were really for me. And this time it was because I wanted to live. And so I went to rehab and that was April 20th, 2006, which is four 20. I don’t know if that means the same thing there. I think that’s global. But four 20 is the code word for Pot.

Simon: Ah, okay. Now I didn’t know that.

Skip: But that’s my, that’s my clean day.

Simon: Wow. Skip, what a story it must feel so relieving to talk about it? what’s the emotions that come out when you talk about your story?

Skip: Gratitude. , gratitude. You know, people say you should be proud of yourself. No, I mean, there is a sense of, but it’s not pride. I mean, it’s more humility and it’s more gratitude. I am 16 years into this recovery but I’m only one joint away or one drink away from a relapse. And those urges have come over the years. Right. they can go away for a long time, but then boom, there’s a thought, there’s a trigger . So, I have to stay in the routine of recovery, the routine that works for me, which I have my support group, I have a sponsor. I sponsor other people, you know. That holds me accountable. People depend on my sobriety. So I’m grateful for them, for giving me that opportunity for them to trust me. I was so untrustworthy. I was living two different lives. I was such the liar my whole life. And there was so many different versions of Skip. There was the one that he presented in front of his family. There was the one he presented to his drinking buddies. There was the one he presented to when he was at work or whatever. None of them were ever the same. There was a point in my life it was like, wait, who knows what, who knows what about me? And what did I tell them about me? And what story did I tell them? You know, which, which is the lie? Which was truth. And it was a few years into recovery that I started to, and it actually started from revealing my H I V status when dating people. , this was like 2009. And there was still, like, today we know that I’m undetectable, so I cannot infect someone with H I V. It’s just scientifically proven, you know? Still stigma around it. People don’t still really get that. But in 2009, nobody believed it. Nobody. And I lost a lot of dates.In fact, I’d be in the middle of dates and they’d find out, and it was like they were gone. And I realized that I’m compartmentalizing my life. And so I want to create my life in a way that it’s just out there. No, I don’t go and regurgitate everything to everyone, but if anybody Googles me , right? They’re gonna see Skip Sam, singer songwriter, bipolar recovering addict, H I V, but they’re also gonna see musician, recovery coach. You know, they’re gonna see a lot of different things and positive things, most of them positive. And on that day, in 2009, I, I thought I need to integrate all of these compartments, and that’s when I can be whole and I could fill this hole finally. And if I integrate, then I can be an integrity. dude, like this light bulb went off. Integrity integrate. It’s the fucking same word. Right? It was just, amazing. That was like such an affirmation that in to stop compartmentalizing. I’ve created my life on purpose. So that I can talk openly about this and that I can, and I know not everyone can. for different reasons.

Simon: Is that what led you to recovery coaching to integrate all the parts of you into one and use it as a bit of a force to support other people? Is that what the drive was?

Skip: It was kind of it was not a conscious decision at first to like go into coaching. there was a point where I realized I was on that path. So I made the conscious decision to go to school at the University of Miami, after I got my master’s, I went back and got certified in professional coaching. And then I started pursuing it as a career a couple years after, you know, so, okay, here’s the progression. You want the progression ?

Simon: yeah.

Skip: So when I got sober I went to play the piano and I could not play I would go to play an F chord. I was trying to play an F chord and I kept playing B flat and I was just like, my hand and my head were not doing the, they were not coordinated. And then I figured out why, I’m playing an F court, I’m wanting to play an F chord, but I’m playing B flat because I’m seeing the B flat in the F scale. . And so it was just totally twisted. I tried to sing and my throat just like clenched. And I thought I lost music forever. Andyou know, it was much later that I realized I didn’t lose it, I abandoned it. But at that point I thought I lost it. But I wanted to stay sober. I wanted to stay clean and so I had to come into acceptance with that. I hated it . ButI hated myself actually. I went to see a Beck concert once and I saw him performing and he’s like, this guy is so awesome. , and I hated the whole concert. The more awesome he was, the more I hated it. And because I hated myself, you know? it’s like, I’m never gonna be able to do that. So I needed some relief or something. I needed to like, have a creative outlet. So I, went to a community college and just started taking drawing classes, painting classes something that I’ve never really done before, but that I could do to get, stimulate that creativity. And because it was college, everything was graded and I was, getting Ds and some of those Ds, they were just being nice. I’m sure they were just like, you know, F. After A couple of quarters of school, my grades were going up Cs, and then I was getting some B’s and I realized that if I can take something I’ve never learned before and improve artistically and creatively, why can’t I do that with music? So I started over, I pulled out my elementary piano books and just started over completely and went and relearned my scales and just took a while to get, a year or so mm-hmm. . And then I thought, I’m gonna take this big time. AndI applied to grad school and I got into the University of Miami and I started scoring film which I always wanted to do. While I was there, I became involved in some different spiritual groups, like meditation groups and of course my recovery groups. And I got into some of these meditation groups and then I learned to like do the guided meditations. Then I was taking the stuff I was learning from the University of Miami with the music and the recording and I started recording my voice for guided meditations and then putting original music under it and then giving those to people. And that turned into,” hey, come to our retreats and do the guided meditations”, which turned into, “Hey, will you facilitate this retreat with me? ” Then, along with that because I was facilitating the retreats, people were wanting to work with me individually. And that’s when I realized people are asking me like how to not, it’s a, sponsorship is a different thing, sponsorship is totally different. Coaching is, you don’t tell people what to do, right? It’s listening deeply and asking questions that they are able to get the answers and just help them, guide them to find those answers. And I wanted to make sure I was doing it right. And a lot of people say I’m a coach and there’s different, if you’re an expert in something, yes, you can coach, mentor, but if you’re like going on a life coach type thing where you’re dealing with people’s intimate secrets and their choices they wanna make in their life, I wanted to make sure that I was doing that in the most professional way. I’m not a therapist, right? And so I wanted, I just wanted to know how to deal with that. And that’s when I started coaching and from there, as my years went on I started to realize I want to put all of this together. And so my journey of finding my music and finding my voice and then finding my career in it, and then I started a school you know, it’s from meth addict to starting a school. The school is something I am proud of, I wanted to be able to help other musicians and people in recovery do that as well. So that’s where today I focus mainly on musicians and artists in recovery who are wanting to find their way back to that.

Simon: Skip, you’ve got such a powerful story. It’s, it’s full of highs and lows. The terminology that kept coming to my mind as you were talking was this concept around the wounded healer. This is someone who has been through hell and has come out the other side and wants to use that to inspire other people to come into, recovery, whether that’s addiction, that’s mental illness. And there’s real power in connecting someone who’s walked in the shoes, with other people who are also walking in the shoes. Cause you can only learn so much from textbooks and theory , but once you’ve actually got that real lived experience, there is a real powerful connection that you can have with a client. Do you find that your personal experiences really helps drive your connection with the clients that you work with?

Skip: I think so. I talked about listening deeply and hearing deeply, everybody’s situation is different, but yet our stories, especially with addicts, are a lot the same. It could be a different drug, different family, different upbringing, but there is a level of understanding amongst addicts and recovery that is, there’s a lot of commonalities. So when I’m hearing someone share their story with me, someone who’s not an addict would not understand the same. For addicts when they’re newly in recovery, it’s like, “wow, I told the truth today”, right? And addicts are like, “yeah, good job”. And sometimes we’ll tell stories that most people would be like, “oh my God”. But we just sit and laugh because, not because of the situation, but it’s like, yeah, we’ve all been there. So there’s that level of understanding that I think is, is really important. And when I share my story and, I try not to present myself of like, “look what I did. Look how great I am”. I just want to say , this is my path and this is where I’ve gotten, and if I can do this, I know you can too. that’s what I want. And so that’s why I like to share openly because I know I resonate with people who tell me the truth and tell me their story, and I can tell the authenticity of their story. That’s who I resonate with. That’s who I wanna work with. That’s who I want to be friends with.

Simon: It’s such a powerful thing to be able to take off that mask. You mentioned living double lives and so forth. But when we can get to that point where we can actually just take it off and reveal the real us, it’s such a relief to do that. Whether or not it’s one-to-one with someone that you know, or a therapist or in group settings where you’re around other people that have, shared similar pathways. . And you mentioned before you had the bulimia, and then you went into the drugs andthen the bulimia dropped away and it felt like you were plugging holes essentially, in your being, and you’ve also got the bipolar diagnosis as well. Was, the bipolars part of all this, or did that come later on in your life?

Skip: I knew from very young that I was depressed. A lot of depression. And so the bipolar diagnosis didn’t come til later. Actually, there was suspicion before but it was hard to diagnose like mania, especially when you’re doing speed, you know, , that’s, that’s not easy to, you know, it’s like, , are you acting like that because you’re high on crystal meth or is it really mania? But I don’t know the percentage, but it’s very high percentage that people who are addicts also have some kind of mental illness or mental disorder. and I believe that all those years I was self-medicating. And that’s why I liked uppers. That’s why I didn’t want heroin or downers or anything like that because I was already down there. I was looking for cocaine and crystal meth to like bring me up. And that’s why when I first got crystal meth, I felt like it balanced me out. . That’s why I didn’t want to drink anymore. I didn’t need pot anymore. Coke didn’t do the same thing, but I felt like it was a delusion, but I felt like it balanced me out. Because it brought me down enough from the, from the mania. And it brought me up from the depression.

Simon: Yeah. and you said that you knew from a young age that you were depressed. Men, I mean I have had my journey as well of mental illness. I developed O C D from eight years old and, and bouts of depression, anxiety over 30 years. But I don’t remember ever talking about mental health or anything like that growing up in the eighties and nineties. Did you have people around you that were talking about things like depression?

Skip: Yeah, we’ve talked about it in my family. Like depression has run in my family. My grandmother, other family members of mine.

Simon: I grew up in an environment where we didn’t talk about it, didn’t even know mental health was or mental illness was a term really. It wasn’t until, later when I turned 30 or so that we started going, oh, there’s this thing called mental health , and we can talk about it and all this type of stuff. So it’s interesting that you’ve had that all through your life. Did you ever go see a doctor around the depression?

Skip: I did. I went to therapy. when I was 19 and I was living in L.A., I got really depressed. Even though I was 2000 miles away from my family, I was still like they were just, they were still right here. They were still right there with me. And, and I was always in constant fear, of having to come out to them or if they found out and, there was a lot of depression in that. And there was a point where one of my doctors told me they wanted to put me on antidepressants , and I was on my parents’ insurance. So they found out about it and they’re like, if you’re on antidepressants, we deserve to know what’s going on. And that’s when I came out to ’em.

Simon: Yeah. what was it like coming out to them? was scary or did they welcome it? Like what was the response?

Skip: No, it was scary. And, you know, it challenged their deepest beliefs. We never talked about homosexuality in my house. we saw it on tv, and Jerry Falwell and Anita Bryant and, all these televangelist and so we saw it, but we never talked about it. And I did hear them at points, like there was at one point in America where Anita Bryant had this crusade to like, find gay teachers in public schools because they’re recruiting kids. Kind of like the freaking conversations that they’re doing now in schools. So coming out to them it was hard. It was hard for them, you know, and I have compassion for that. because I know it, it challenged their deepest beliefs, and it still does in some sense. They’ve come into acceptance of me. and, I don’t know that they’ve ever fully accepted that part of me. They loved my partner of 17 years.His ashes are buried in their backyard. So I mean, there’s that level of acceptance and they love me. they never like shunned me away, but it’s this 35 years later, it took up many years of working through it.

Simon: And I that that addiction was probably something that you, said was self-medication style was that part of it as well? Trying to numb all that stuff with your family?

Skip: Yeah. You know, again, that comes back to why a spiritual life is so important for me, the spiritual aspect of recovery. That’s very personal to me, but the third step in the 12 steps is we turn our will in our lives over to the care of God as we understood him, and I went to my first 12 step meeting when I was 21. , I knew that early I had a problem, but I heard ‘we turn our will in our lives over to the care of God’. And I’m like, “fuck you man. I ever already tried that. I know about God and this is stupid”. Yeah. And it wasn’t until that day that I was ready that I told you about before, you know, your life doesn’t have to be over. It could be half over. I was ready that moment there was like my first experience of the God of my understanding. G.O.D gift of desperation. . And so when I went to rehab and I saw the 12 steps on the wall, we turn our will in our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Like that never really resonated, and it’s italicized and underlined, as we understood him, it’s like, ‘Hey, people look at this’, and he’s like, wow, okay, it’s my understanding. So I’m never gonna say as we understood him, in my mind, I’m gonna say God, as I understand God. Cause I never understood how there’s this man and he created this. You know, I just never really understood that. . So for me, that’s the first thing I did. and I realized the God that I thought I understood growing up is now I see as the God of my misunderstanding. You know, the misunderstanding of God loves you, but you’re going to hell. that’s a total misunderstanding. I do not believe that today.

Simon: I’d love to hear about sobriety and you mentioned before that there’s been times where you’ve been tempted, tell us when it comes on for someone who is sober and when those temptations come on. What’s some of the strategies that you use that help you through those processes?

Skip: The things I learned in the first two years are still what I come back to today. In the first few years I went to a meeting every day and the reason to do that is to get locked in. There’s a lot of things that you do that doesn’t make sense why, but if you don’t practice doing them, you’re not gonna do it when you need it. so getting locked in and making friends with people in recovery and getting that connection and going to the meetings. Because if you don’t go to a meeting, you are not gonna go to a meeting because you don’t want to use, if you haven’t been going to meetings. A lot of times people will say, make a phone call to your sponsor or somebody else in recovery every day. And the reason to do that is even if you’re just gonna call, say “hi” cause you’re practicing calling. Even if you don’t have anything to say, because if you’re used to dialing a number and talking to someone and saying Hi, when you wanna get high, it’s not going to be so scary to pick up the phone, dial that number and say hi.

Simon: Yeah. It’s almost like a muscle memory .

Skip: Yeah, it is. It is. You know. And same with meditation. I love that we call meditation a practice. Because practice it for the times that the insanity comes in our head. We have practiced knowing how to get to a safe space. We practice know how to get into a serene place so that when there’s insanity we know how to get there. So, you know, a lot of these little things that I learned in the first couple years Still come in play today.

Simon: Yeah. Talk us through like your meditative practices. I love guided meditation myself and I like to use mindfulness. This is the Mindful Men podcast and mindfulness is twofold for me, it’s acceptance and commitment therapy so we’ve become mindful of how we can ground ourselves in the moment, how we can be present, how we can use that to work through things like say, anxiety or peak periods where we’re distressed. But it’s also about being mindful of who we are and in, our values and our identity and how we’re showing up in different parts of our lives, could it be work, family, et cetera. And meditation and mindfulness is something that’s central to the way that I go about it. But what does it look like for you? Describe how you practice it for other guys out there who might be thinking, oh, meditation’s, rubbish, I’m not gonna do that. Walk us through it and, and tell us how good it is for you.

Skip: Well, there’s so many different forms of meditation, right? People think that meditation is you know, and like having no other thought in the brain, but, ‘om’ and that is a very valid form of meditation. But if you look in the dictionary, what’s the first almost any dictionary that you look and say “what’s meditate?” The next words are contemplate. . It’s to contemplate, it’s to think on, that’s why we have people meditate on a mantra. Right. So there is the getting silent and that is one. And I did that, I started that when I was just a couple months sober. And I had the willingness to to try it. I have no idea where this willingness came from, but I had a manual kitchen timer. , And I started, I’d put it on 30 seconds cause I could not sit still. Right. I could not sit still, when I, when I got sober, I was always shaking and. So it was like 30 seconds, 45 seconds. And then I would get it to a minute, and every now and then I would just add time to the point where I got it up to 15 minutes. And that was my first form of getting silent and still, but I also learned through those art classes that drawing still life is a definite form of meditation because you are so focused on that, still life, you don’t have time to really think about anything else because you need to get that curve just right or that shading just right, that shadow, just right. And so you’re really meditating on that piece of work. I have found that when I’m practicing piano , there’s a time that there’s times where I’m doing it and I’m practicing, I’m working, but there’s times where I can get lost in it. And to me that is a form of meditation. And it’s kind of like, I see it as the spirit of creativity, you know, working through me and just becoming one with that. Riding my bike is a form of meditation. Until somebody takes the wrong turn and almost hits me and then it turns into just the opposite. , it’s funny how from you can go from here to here in a split second. I get on my bike and within 30 seconds I’m like, I love my life. And so there’s so many different forms of meditation and I like to try many different ones. , I have some guided meditations. Louise Hayes she did in the 1980s she did a morning meditation and a night meditation. They’re both like a half hour long. My iTunes shows that I’ve listened to those like over 1600 times. I’ve used those a

lot

over the years.

Simon: creativity is such a crucial part of recovery and feeling well, and just general wellness as well. In 2020, I experienced burnout and I had four months off of work and I couldn’t think straight, I was physically spent, emotionally spent, mentally spent. And I worked with my mental health social worker on finding joy in my life as well and creativity was one of those things that I kind of left behind at high school. I’ve got the guitar there, but it’s the older I get the, the more dust it seems to get and pick up. But I found so I’ve got a Mac computer and I’ve found Garage band on there. So I was always interested in music and, I was never a DJ growing up, but I found this creative and meditative process of putting the loop to music together. And I would do that for one or two hours and it would help me just focus in on one thing instead of thinking about 5 million things. And then at the end of it, I would. Press publish. And I’ve published them on YouTube just as like a mental health inspired music. And they’re not that great, but anyway, they’re on there. And the sense of pressing publish and completing that task from start to finish was just hugely satisfying. It was creative, it was inspiring, and it made me feel really good. So I wanna hear your thoughts on the importance of creativity in recovery and music and your love for music and singing and acting and all that How, critical has it been for you to recover?

Skip: Well, as I shared before, the getting from nothing back to my life, passion That in of itself, not only did I, was I finding my way back to my music, but I was finding back to. , my authenticity. I was finding back to who I was. Right? I’m a musician. I mean, that’s so much part of my identity. You know, a lot of people will say, and I’m sure you hear this, I’m not creative, If you do something, they’ll listen to my, if they hear my music, or, oh, that’s awesome. I’m not creative, and that’s bullshit. We’re all creative. We’re creating our own life experiences. we create our surroundings. We create everything about our lives. So there’s so many different forms of creativity. We’re creating our experience, we’re creating our bodies. If you’re wondering why you’re fat, I’m losing my covid fat, but you know why? why I created that. I created it by having a do you guys have Ben and Jerry’s ice ice cream?

Simon: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Skip: Yeah. Yeah. So I had a year long three-way with Ben and Jerry , and, you know, they left behind about 30 pounds of garbage ,and, but you know what? I created that, that didn’t just appear. But there’s so many different forms, you know, so there’s people who do woodworking. I found stained glass. That’s another one I found. I love that. That’s talk about meditation. Oh my gosh. You have to meditate on that or, or else you’re gonna have bloodied fingers big time. So I, you know, it’s like what brings you joy? What is it that brings you joy? And people, again, will say, well, I’m too old to start that. . Well, maybe there’s different forms of it. Maybe you don’t have to go try to be a pro or, you know, sell your shit. But maybe you can become involved a different way. If you don’t want, if you love acting, but you don’t feel, go work in a theater in some way. And, you know, allow that creativity to come out. That’s what we’re here for. We are here to create. my belief is that whatever created this universe, whatever it is that created it, is, also created our solar system. It created our earth. Our earth created us, we have the ability to create, because that’s what we’re made from. So what we create is just an extension from what created everything. So that is, and think about what brings people joy. It’s the things that we create. What brings people’s sadness. It’s the sadness we create. I wanna focus on creating joy.

Simon: It’s such a powerful definition, the way you describe creativity. It’s eye-opening. It’s really inspiring actually, the way you think about creativity. I’m gonna tell my wife cause she’s one of those people that goes, I’m not creative, I don’t know what, but She creates space for our family to be our family, in her role as a mom.

Skip: That’s beautiful.

Simon: And a partner

 I wanna go tell her this after this. She’s working from home today. So , I’ve gotta go straight in there into her meeting and interrupt her meeting to tell her that. Now Skip, tell us about your business. Tell us about your coaching and, describe, some of the stuff that you might do with a potential client. And Where can we find the business?

Skip: skipsams.com. You could find my music there. I mean, I have different websites, but skipsams.com is kind of the central. I have my success.coach. But even there, skipsams.com. You’re gonna find the find the link. right now I am creating creative groups. and I have a couple different ones. One is making amends with your muse. And that is a small group. It’s group coaching. we meet every week for 12 weeks, and I meet with them as individuals as well. But making amends with your muse is just the same as making amends with people. And just the way I described creativity to you, my music did not abandon me, I abandoned it. It’s always been there waiting for me to come back. I had to start from ground zero, but it’s the same as any other relationship I had to regain. So, and I think of it that way and kind of personify music or creativity or art, whatever it is. It’s a person. It’s like my best friend. It’s , a lover. And I told you earlier, I didn’t think I was worthy of being a good musician. Bullshit. Right? I’m so glad you let me cuss, that’s awesome. So I used to be afraid to play the piano, or I’m not gonna play because they suck. , or I’m not gonna be good today, or I don’t feel like it today. If I’m in a relationship with someone, am I going to like, stand them up on a date because I feel like I’m not gonna be a good date? Or am I going to avoid, I mean, what happens when we avoid our best friends or our lovers or our partners, our husbands and wives? Because , , there is me time you need that, but because I don’t, I feel like I’m not worthy of them. We talk to them and we communicate and we hug and we embrace, or honey, I’m not feeling well today. I need a hug. So when I started thinking about that, it’s like I need to go touch my piano every day and have my fingers run up and down the board. cause I need to tell my piano I love it. And my piano does not care if I suck that day. It doesn’t care. It’s just really happy that I’m spending time with it. So that’s kind of like making amends with your muse. And so we work through some of that during those 12 weeks. how do we connect with our music. How do we make the space for our music? Not just music, any of our art, right? We have to have boundaries. We have to have boundaries so that our work I have a client now who is like, she has her own business and people call her at nine o’clock at night and she answers the phone. , and she’s in the middle of practicing and it’s like, well wait, you want your relationship with music why are you answering your phone after hours? You see what I mean? It’s like, Some really simple life things that we can work on to create exactly like you said, your wife creates the space for your family. We have to create the space for our creativity.

Simon: I love it. I’m gonna dust off this guitar afterwe speak as well and get it tuned up.

Skip: Yes, do . I want some emails of some videos, man.

Simon: Trust me, you don’t wanna see that.

Skip: Hey, you know what, I see it all the time. Actually.I encourage my clients to like, show me the shit. Because you can trust me. I’m not gonna make fun of you. I’m gonna celebrate with you that you picked up that guitar, and if you picked up that guitar and play one chord, good for you. When’s the last time you picked up the guitar and played a chord? So you took a great

step.

A while back. I think the kids will playing get more these days than I, but I’d hate to think what kind of tuning happening right now.And then I have just very quickly, I’ll tell you, I have another group and it’s just starting November 7th. And it’s kind of like that same but second year level right? It’s kind of like, okay, we’ve done all this. Now let’s focus in, how do we focus in on what’s this goal? How are we gonna do it? How are we gonna focus on it and work through the, the other stuff that comes along. And that’s, I’m really looking forward to that one.

Simon: Awesome. Yeah. Well, Skip, I’ve really enjoyed our chat today. I think, we could keep going and going and going. You’ve got a very powerful story and I’m so glad to hear that you’ve flipped the script and that you’re looking forward to those longer years in life now. I always like to finish off letting my guests, you know, share something that makes them feel good. And it doesn’t have to be anything to do with what we’ve talked about. So it could be something that you’re watching on telly or a book you’ve read. It could be a self-care activity, it could be some cool musician that you found or anything like that. And it’s just kind of a bit of a pay it forward for some of our audience to listen to as well.

Skip: Oh wow. I’ll tell you, there is a song I’ve been listening to lately and I’m listening to it constantly, and I never really knew this artist very much. He’s a Broadway singer. His name is Ben Plat, and he sings this song called ‘Grow As We Go’. And it’s a love song. Oh It’s a love song to a partner. The partner has said, I need my space because I have to work through this stuff on my own. And the song is about, no, stay here. Let’s grow as we go, and I’ll create the space for you, but I’m giving you permission to do whatever you need, but you can do it right here because I also have stuff to work on. I remember when my mom when I was very young the same girl I told to, she told move to I was thinking about asking her to marry me at one point, and my mom gave me this advice that if you wanna have a relationship to last, you have to be willing to change with that person. Not for that person, but with that person. And so that song reminds me of that. Listen to it. I’m sure as a married man with a family, you’ll appreciate it very much. Grow as we go by Ben Platt.

Simon: All right. I’ll find it and put it in the show notes below, plus the link to your business as well and your website. Skip, thanks so much for your time today, I really appreciate you coming on and being vulnerable and sharing your story and I look forward to watching you grow in this space. And, yeah, I’ll do a video and send it through on email with me playing some pretty terrible guitar.

Skip: Please do. Yes. That would be awesome. That’s something else for you to post on YouTube

Simon: I might hold you to that and just make myself even more vulnerable than I already am.

Skip: You know, that’s the stuff that says if I can do it, you can do it.

Simon: Yes. And that’s why we do this podcast, is to have these discussions to show other people out there, particularly guys that you know, if we can have a conversation for an hour, we’ve only just met, they can do it too Thanks Skip. I really appreciate your time and have a good afternoon.

Skip: Thank you. Take care.