Simon: G’day guys, and welcome to another episode of The Mindful Men Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about addiction to gambling and how this impacts us in terms of our mental health and our relationships as well.

Now, trigger warning, because we are talking a bit about mental health and addiction as well that if these topics do trigger you, please feel free to skip this episode.

That’s more than okay. But if you do stick around and you do get triggered, please reach out to someone in your support network afterwards.

And joining me today, I’ve got Kate Seselja from Canberra in the ACT. How you going, Kate?

Kate: I’m really well. Thanks Simon.

Simon: I’m really excited to, have a chat about addiction and gambling and mental health as well. Cause I’m passionate about all these things. But to introduce you, I loved how you wrote your introduction for me and you started off saying that you’re a human being. And I often tell the guys that I work within my therapy business is that we are all just human because they’re often, reflecting on themselves and thinking that they’ve failed as people

And I’m like, well, you’re just human. And, we fall down, but we just pick ourselves up again. So, I really loved how you described yourself as being a human first. But you’re also a married mom and you have six children as a dad to two I often just wonder how people go back for more than two.

But you’ve done it six times. So, we’ll talk a bit about parenting as well, because I do love talking about family. And you’re an advocate for gambling reform, speaker and recovery coach, but you’re also the founder of The Hope Project as well, and a TEDx speaker. So, you’ve got quite a CV to talk about today.

So, thanks so much for joining me.

Kate: it’s such a pleasure to spend some time and, and get to know you. Thank you.

Simon: No worries. And I’d like to start off in finding a bit about my guest and, what their backstory is because the social worker in me, I like to understand context and, what influenced you along your journey.

So can you start by just telling us a bit about where you grew up and some of those, key life events and then we’ll get into a bit about parenting as well before we get into the addiction stuff.

Kate’s backstory

Kate: Absolutely. Well, I grew up in Sydney one of seven that’s why I love, the fact that I have six children. I loved being in a big family the reason why I, lead with I’m a human being is I think so often we get distracted by other labels that people either put on us or that we put on ourselves. And when, our life and that label just doesn’t kind of match up, we feel very lost and confused by the world.

So, reminding myself always that I’m human, I’m fallible, I’m no different to anybody else, is really, really important. So yeah, growing up in Sydney it’s also the Pokie capital of the world. We have the most poker machines per capita than any other country. And that’s why we are the number one gambling nation in the world. But I didn’t know that at the time, I just accepted them as a normal part of the social landscape. And so, as an 18-year-old thought nothing about sitting behind one, playing ’em for the first time and had a win and thought, wow, that was easy. that money that I earned seemed so much easier to get than me working, a long shift.

Simon: And so that illusion of winning became something that hijacked my mental and physical body for the next decade and a half. Wow. And you said that Sydney, is, the pokies capital of the world., and I, I immediately thought to Las Vegas. Mm-hmm. You see on the tv and there’s just, it’s just seemed like it’s built on a poker machine.

 I didn’t know we were the leading pokies country as well. That’s just unfathomable.

Kate:

we have the most pokies per adult population. there is an environment that is set to capture Australians without them actually realizing what’s happening. the gambling landscape in this country is what I’ve spent the last 10 years focusing on since I almost took my life in 2012 realizing what is profoundly broken about this environment rather than think that I was profoundly broken.

Simon:  Yeah. And, we’ll dive into the poke stuff in a moment, but I’m, interested in like, growing up as one of seven kids. I had three brothers. What was it like growing up with six siblings?

Kate: I had one brother. He’s older and five younger sisters. And I just loved it.

 there was always something happening in our family and we’re still, close and my oldest is 22, he just got married and my youngest is 10 in primary school. And they fight like normal kids do, but there’s so much life, there’s so much happening in our household that is such a blessing.

We just love it.

Simon: did you have a big extended family as well growing up?

Kate: Mum was one of six and dad was one of three. So, I think having that importance of family was there. But it was kind of, mum and dad were really like pioneers and.

Always just wanted us to be close, And I think they’ve done an incredible job. they’re beautiful parents.

Simon: Yeah. To raise seven children. They’ve done an amazing job.

 she always used to say they don’t come at once, and I think that, you learn to adapt, you learn to grow. The more that that come along, and then you have older ones that help with the younger ones.

Kate: the things that we’re seeing in our littlest one, she’s almost three compared to her older brother she’s picking up so much, so quickly, I guess she’s bouncing off of him, whereas he had to learn it all from scratch. Whereas she’s got a model there to picture, okay, this is what I can get away with and this is what I can’t get away with. And it’s really beautiful to see how quickly she’s developing compared to her brother as well.

Simon: But as a mom of six, what does it mean to you to be a mom and a parent?

What it means to Kate to be a parent

Kate: It’s everything. I knew I wanted to have a large family and I ended up having to have c-sections, which initially kind of blindsided me and I remember vividly after laboring for 24 hours and then having a c-section saying to my husband, well, enjoy him because I’m never doing that again.

 Then that desire to have a large family outweighed the pain that I knew I was going to have to go through to have them. And I just, I look at them and they’re just so different and so unique and so special in their own ways that, that delight just far outweighs any of that pain that I knew I had to go through to have them.

Simon: Yeah. Are there any standout moments that you’ve got with your kids you’ve just had the wedding of your son is there anything else that sticks to mind like, oh, I love that moment, or, that was a nice fond memory?

Kate: Oh, there’s just too many to think about.

it’s special moments just with each individual just celebrating their successes, their wins. My daughter just finished year 12. she was just so proud at the effort that she just put in and graduated. My second child has just completed second year uni.

She went on a mission trip. Understanding the highlights and really just living in those moments. But also having that open communication for when things aren’t going so well and making sure that I am the port of call for them to be that safe place for when, things aren’t okay.

That we are not just here cheering them on in the good times, but we are here to help them through whatever struggles they go through. And that was part of the big reason why I went public with my story, I wanted to step out completely of that shadow of shame that had almost killed me and not be owned by the mistakes that I had made, but to really learn through them and make it a safe place for others to connect to me authentically rather than me just plaster on a facade and pretend to be perfect when that’s not achievable for anybody. So, I thought, how can I expect my kids to learn through their mistakes if I’m not even modelling that? And, it was just a moment my son actually grounded me in my humanness the morning after I almost didn’t come home. he said to me, mom, what’s wrong? And I thought, oh, here we go. I’m going to have to tell him. And I don’t want to, I just wanted to be strong for him. But I said to him, mate, I’ve made so many mistakes and I just don’t know what’s going on with me.

And he just looked at me and he said, mom, everyone makes mistakes. And that just hit me, my kids didn’t need me to pretend to be perfect. They needed me to help them navigate life and its complexities. And that was, one of those amazing moments, of connection and authenticity.

That has not only, had a profound impact on me, but in sharing that story, others have been, able to exhale the stress and the shame in their life and reconnect to their humanness.

Simon: As you were describing that moment, it felt like to me that you were taking off the mask of mental illness and addiction as well and saying, I can no longer hold this.

 I’m suffocating under this mask. I need to get a breath of fresh air and start talking about it. And with your son, what must be a powerful mother, son moment. I was reading up on your story, on your website and you were talking about that moment where you nearly didn’t come home and how intricately linked that was with your daughter as well.

Understand you were pregnant at the time. Talk us through that. as much as you feel comfortable to do so.

 what was that moment where you go, okay, something needs to change?

Pokies and gambling addiction

Kate: I tried, you know, over the 15 years that I struggled with gambling addiction to access help numerous times. And it wasn’t the right help because we weren’t, and we still aren’t taking gambling addiction seriously in this country.

 it’s come a long way, especially in the last 10 years. But at that time, it was very shame, fuelling narratives, not any kind of industry awareness or understanding the ecosystem of gambling in our culture. So, it was just very individual focused and, so I was left with, I am the problem.

No one explained to me that I was actually using the poker machine exactly how it was designed to be played. So, from an industry standpoint, I was the perfect customer. But if you are made to feel like you are the problem, then it presents you with one option. I need to be removed from the situation.

And I was so fortunate to be pregnant without sixth child. I had prayed for her in really wanting to have a sixth child and was elated during that pregnancy. And then that moment of, I just can’t be on this rollercoaster anymore. I’m so physically mentally exhausted from not understanding what was going on with my mind and body.

And so, I sat there after putting the last money I had access to, into a pokie and trying to figure out how to take my life and not hers. And I couldn’t think of how to do that, so I finally answered my phone. It had been ringing for hours people trying to find me, but I had no words left.

nothing made sense. And, I look back on myself and that point with compassion now because I felt so profoundly misunderstood. Like there had to be something that I’d missed. And in sharing my insights that I’ve learnt in the last 10 years, but also the insights I learned while I was experiencing gambling harm, being able to utilize that now, not only to create regulatory change to create and inform legislation and certainly to help liberate others from shame that was never theirs to bear when we weren’t informed about gambling harm it was viewed as entertainment. When it’s addiction by design, there’s no other way of putting it. And so, had I had that information available to me, I know I wouldn’t have reached that point of thinking there’s no other way. And unfortunately, in this country, over 400 people take their life currently from gambling related suicides. And it’s not good enough. It’s not good enough that we are the number one gambling nation in the world and nobody’s fighting for that change. If we were the, country that was struggling with literacy, think about the resources that would be thrown at that problem.

Yet gambling harm is budgeted to increase each year. The government forms a budget as a tax revenue stream. its super funds invest in gambling companies because they know it’s a Sure bet. the banks totally utilize customer information and have exploited people selling their information to gambling companies so that they can be targeted.

So, it’s been a complete mismanagement of human pain. And a knowing of exploitation of human vulnerabilities for financial gain that’s been going on for decades in this country.

Simon: And you said entertainment there and you are in Canberra at the moment. I used to live in Canberra and, there’s a lot of big clubs there, they’re tied to different organizations, a lot of sporting clubs.

We used to go to the leagues clubs and the AFL clubs there and you’d have a nice meal, but then you’d be constantly reminded that the pokies are there because you almost have to walk through them to get to the restaurant part or the bar But also, I’ve been reflecting on this more recently since becoming a dad and watching the football on TV or any sport on TV before you can even get to the game, you’ve got to get through these ex-players or ex athletes who are there pumping the sports bet on sports this and sports whatever else.

And I’m sitting there with my five-year-old son and I just wanted me and him to enjoy the game, but to get through the betting stuff beforehand, it’s just reinforcing it. And the, way that they come at it it’s very jovial. They have a good laugh and because they’re old sporting icons are up there promoting it, young people, they go, oh, that’s my Favorite player, if he’s doing it, I can do it.

But it is so toxic. I just wished as a dad, I was never really into gambling myself, but I’d do the pokies and I had a, sports betting account at one stage but as a dad, I’m just like, I don’t want my son to be corrupted.

 I haven’t lived in Sydney, but I have been to a few clubs, very similar. But then for a time I lived in Hobart and, their pokies are really restricted to the casino there. You just go in there and having a, a nice meal and a pub and a beer and catching up with your mates Its very different environments depending on where you live in Australia, So, thinking back to where it started for you, you mentioned that when you were 18 and you had that first win on the pokies, is that where it all started?

Kate: Well, yeah. It was just that exposure of everywhere I was as an 18-year-old, whether it was a pub club, nightclub, there were pokies there. So, it was just that accessibility that was huge.

And because it was so normalized that, I didn’t have to go into a back room or do anything that seemed bad. So, it was just part of it. And I quickly realized, how much money I was spending and how much time I was spending there, but I kind of justified it, like, well, I don’t have bills to pay.

It’s, my disposable income. I can do what I want. I’m young. And then I met my husband and we got married and moved to Canberra. And so, I hadn’t gambled for about 18 months and then, When I was at a mother’s group with my first child it was held in a club and I could hear the pokies and we were building a home at the time.

And so there was large sum for the build in the bank account. And I thought, oh, remember that time you won, maybe we could get the house built quicker, and of course I went through 30,000 in a month. And I told my husband what had happened and he just didn’t understand it.

He didn’t understand what that meant. his solution was, well, just don’t do it, but unless you’ve experienced it, it’s very hard to understand it because when somebody has too much to drink, you can see it, you can smell it. When somebody’s on drugs, it’s visible. When somebody is mentally hijacked by gambling, it’s completely invisible.

And that grooming process, that shame that I hadn’t processed from early, experiences with was all there, but I just kind of moved away from it rather than actually address it or understand it. And so that’s something that when people first reach out to, I say them talk to me about your first experience. And it’ll be like, oh, well I, was at a wedding and there were pokies there, or I was just gone to the pub to hang out with my mate. And then we started playing and I’m like, right. So, your intention was never to gamble. It was there, it was that you were exposed to it by accessibility, whereas if you think about it, when it’s just in a casino that’s a destination.

You, you’re going to a casino to gamble. When it’s in social spaces, it’s an exploitation of the social license, without the proper warnings, without proper, education about what a person’s actually engaging with. And so, helping people unpack that. Oh, right. So, like, I didn’t ever have any intention. No one wakes up and goes, you know what, today I’m going to go out and get a gambling addiction. It doesn’t happen but it creeps up on an individual without knowing how they’re being manipulated now, whereas where land-based gambling exploits, human vulnerabilities by having features like losses disguised as wins.

So, say you bet $5, the lights and sounds will go like you’ve won, but it’s only $2. So, it celebrates you losing $3 in a way that’s registered in your brain as a win and understanding that fact came, 18 months into my recovery. I was like, right that explains why you just keep pressing the button, even though the money’s going down and down and down.

You’re, being positively reinforced. There are no negative sounds on a poker machine. There’s no ba- boom. It’s all, sounds, coins, and positive sounds. So, understanding how you’re being mentally hijacked is so important at liberating a person from that personal shame.

Simon: Absolutely.

And, I could just picture being in those environments, it’s not just your machine, it’s all the other machines around you. So, you’re constantly hearing these what seem like waterfalls of gold. so, you get excited and then you might start hunting around different machines

 I’ve done it myself where I’ve go, oh, this one’s feeling lucky today, it’s, it’s the sensory stuff that invokes the need sometimes to continue. It’s interesting you’re talking about how it infiltrates different spaces and I’ve recently started a TikTok for Mindful Men, the podcast where we share some of the snips from the videos that we talk about.

And I’m scrolling through there looking I love mental health content. I’m really passionate about mental health and suicide But I’ve stumbled across all these, videos of people just playing pokies on TikTok and I can’t even put in a hashtag suicide prevention or suicide awareness because it’s a taboo topic on TikTok.

Kate: But it allows all these poker machine visual, and other people are watching it. And so, it’s even infiltrating a platform designed for young people across the globe. You’re getting this infiltration of pokies and the people that are doing it are probably just doing it for likes and, shares They’re probably also getting paid by poker machine companies

 they are a completely intentionally ruthless industry. they do not care about the human cost of the rivers of money that they make and that’s the reality. When, I understood that no one was protecting me from a consumer standpoint, I was heartbroken.

Because that’s something that we take for granted. That we assume that the laws and, the spaces that we operate in, that our health and wellbeing has been taken into account. And this landscape, no way, it is a wild west and all of the rules and regulations have been designed to protect the industry, not the consumer.

Simon: Yeah. and factor into as you said, government budgets and also club budgets as well, the bigger clubs. I remember being in Canberra, the bigger clubs had the bigger poker machine rooms and the smaller ones didn’t probably have any poker machine rooms. And it reminded me of that movie Crackerjack, I’m not sure if you’ve seen it, where the Lawn Bowls club’s getting taken over because they can’t pay the bills.

But then all the ones that are surviving are the ones that have, bunkered in with the pokies. and the gambling side of it as well. I want to take you back to when you, told your husband that you’d lost the 30 grand. what was his response to that?

Kate: Yeah, he was just, he was worried about me. He, he just said, look, it’s just money. you are not leaving me. I’m like, no. He, just was completely ill-equipped to understand the gravity of that moment. And, we were both 22, 23 just trying to keep moving forward,

 And so, when it would flare up in our marriage, his response would be to just take my cards or say go see a counsellor or not understand what was really going on, from an industry standpoint and a personal standpoint, the impact of shame. In not liberating a person from that space.

 it’s just inevitable. Unfortunately, and that’s why I’m so passionate about not only giving people access to be able to speak about their lived experience, but if we don’t help liberate them out of that space of shame, if they’re just merely sharing their story and being trapped by that experience, it still owns them.

And as I said, that this is a public health crisis in this country, and it needs to be acted upon in that context. Not, oh, there’s just a small group of people who should have known better. No, that has been an industry led attack on further exploiting people that they’ve already financially abused.

Simon: and so, were you working at the time, were you stay at home mom? how was this impacting other parts of your life as well?

Kate: At different times, I had part-time jobs, but mostly I have been a stay-at-home mom up until, yeah, the last kind of 10 years in advocacy and recovery coaching.

But it just destroyed my sense of wellbeing. I had no self-esteem. I wasn’t practicing any kind of self-care that wasn’t even in my vocab. And I had no self-awareness around what was driving my behaviour and because of all the narratives around problem gambler, people are the problem, naturally, members of your family or, friends might think they’re following along those social narratives to try and help you, but it’s just pouring more shame on an individual that is, as I said, mentally hijacked and overwhelmed in a way that, that no one has been able to properly treat with compassion or understanding of what’s really going on.

Yeah. So that, that just created, a really unhealthy environment.

Finding the right support for gambling addiction

Simon: And did you ever go to counselling or anything like that and say, I need to go talk to someone. And how hard was that to do that the first time? I always find that the first time was the hardest. And, did you find it helpful at all?

Kate: The, the first time I rang a lifeline was in 2003, and I got told just don’t wear shoes. If you don’t wear shoes, you won’t be able to get into a venue, so you won’t be able to gamble.

Simon: Oh, wow.

Kate: Oh yeah.

Simon: Wow. Yeah. I mean, I can understand the concept, but not exactly helpful.

Kate: I was just gobsmacked.

And, this woman was legit because she had herself experienced gambling harm and that’s how she managed it. And then she said or there’s, gambling anonymous. I said, well, where is there a meeting? And it was an hour away from where I was.

So that’s unmanageable with small children. And I didn’t want to go there either because I didn’t want to identify as an addict. I was addicted, but that’s not who I was. there was stuff that I just didn’t understand about why I was addicted, not that’s my identity. And so yeah, that just didn’t resonate with me and eventually

I saw a face-to-face counsellor and she had recently divorced, so she was trying to counsel me out of my marriage. So that was, again, unhelpful. Then I saw a private psychologist who charged me $200 an hour, and that just added to the financial burdens we were already faced with, and she didn’t understand gambling harm at all.

So, it was just this, every time I put my hand up and it wasn’t helpful, it just removed more and more hope from me. And eventually that morning, with my son, I said to him, look, I’m going to go and try and see a counsellor again. And I went along thinking, well, at the very least I’ll find some time till the baby’s born. And if I still am struggling, then that’s how it’s going to have to be. But I went along and this woman, I’ll just never forget her. She just helped me connect to me fully. It wasn’t about how much have you lost; it wasn’t shame fuelling in any way.

It was told me what you like about you. And I was like, what? Nothing. She said, no, you’ve got to tell me 10 things that you like about you. And that was just that first window into, oh my gosh, I have absolutely no self-esteem. I had lost sight of who I was a long time ago. And I’d been trying to go backwards.

I’d been trying to go back to my 18-year-old self and never ever go in near a poker machine, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t do that. And it, it just felt else was, for naught. And, but connecting back to me probably for the first time, not a reconnection, but an actual initial connection to me was established and that was so, so important at building that foundation of, okay, how can I grow from here? How can I use what I’ve experienced to not only help myself, but help others and have that focus of it not being a wasted experience, but something that I know I experienced because I was meant to change it.

Simon: Yeah. You talked on a few things there around the shame.

There’s a lot of obviously shame in the mental health and addiction space and, particularly around things like gamblers anonymous, narcotics anonymous, alcoholics Anonymous, because you see them in the media as portrayed as the degenerates of society of, I have to get into a circle and then go on a step program to recover.

 and then in the movies, they often go back and they relapse and all that. And there is that lot of shame that’s perpetuated by the media. And it’s reinforced. I mean, I grew up in the eighties and nineties and so there was a lot of shame around men talking about mental health

There was a lot of, we don’t talk about that. Men need to be tough and harden up and, and so forth. and I think when you narrow it down to gambling, alcoholism, taking drugs There’s, a lot of that as well. And it’s not necessarily male specific as well, it’s, it’s female too.

 But then you also touched on the challenges of finding the right help. And, first of all, it was finding something that was in your location and then it was finding someone who actually understood what you were going through and wasn’t there to continue the shame process, but was actually there to help you reconnect with that inner person in you that is good and dig out all those 10 things that you do like about yourself, which can be really hard to do.

 And I do this a lot in my work with in Mindful Men is reconnecting the guys with their values. And it’s not so much about what they’ve done it’s actually about how we can help them just blossom into the flower or tree or whatever they want to blossom into as well.

And it sounds like this person, and I hear a lot of these stories and I’ve had my own stories like this where you finally find that someone who gets you and can help you grow as well. There must have been relieving to be able to do that and have that connection with that psychologist or a counsellor?

Kate: She was a counsellor with Mission Australia at the time. And as part of, the government’s commitment to try and mop up the mess that they’ve made, gambling services are free. There are ones that you can pay for, but in most states and communities, there should be access to free financial counselling and free face-to-face or online counselling.

But. As I said, a decade ago it was only in its early stages of being the helpful resources that it is today. So yeah, she was, she was a real pioneer in that space. And she saw me speak recently and she reached out on social media. She goes, I knew you would do something great with your story.

And I was like, oh my gosh. she was incredible at helping me be okay with my humanness and not waste time on looking back and the mistakes but learn through them, grow through them and realize the power in using that information to change the landscape.

Cause we we’re not just supposed to experience things in isolation and then go off and, be okay by ourselves. We’re a community. We are meant to fight for others that we know. it’s like when you swerve really wide around a pothole so that you’re warning the car behind, hey, there’s something here that you need to be aware of.

So, you don’t fall in that hole. And that’s why I’m passionate about helping to reform the space because it was, and still is an unsafe environment for human beings to be in. It’s not harmless entertainment. It’s not okay that it’s been normalized and fed to our children. it’s part of our culture.

Sport is completely different from gambling. They shouldn’t have ever been married. And it’s completely unhealthy, not only for those viewing it, but for the players themselves. I’ve spoken to many professional players who cop abuse from people because their bet didn’t come off. that they didn’t make a kick that they thought they were going to or whatever, and they’re living with that constant pressure of not only trying to be there, to support the team and have that team, but they’re coping, this financial strain of others because of this the sport gambling relationship,

 what did recovery look like after that for you in the coming years as well? what some of the things that, that worked for you and really helped you to, move away from this addiction. So, there were a couple of elements to that. I started seeing her initially probably twice a week for the first, couple of weeks, just so that I felt like I had that support and that compassion, that encouragement.

And then that tapered off to, once every couple of weeks. I also went along to a smart recovery group that met once a week. And that was the first time I was in a room with others that had experienced things like I had experienced. And there’s real power in, that learning and that sharing of experiences.

And being part of that group was what led me to, 18 months into that experience. I was turning up every Monday night, not for me, but for whoever might walk in that door. And then so, one of the counsellors said, why don’t you train to be a smart recovery coach? And I was like, oh, I hadn’t thought of that.

And so that led me on that path and I took that group from, it was at that time, Mission Australia lost their tender and relationships Australia took over. And so, I helped transition the group over to Relationships Australia. but I was sitting there again on a Monday night waiting for people whose lives had already been imploded to walk through the door.

And I thought, nah, I’ve got to go further back upstream to try and stop this damage from happening to people. It’s not ok. And that was when I decided to go public with my story and be a lived experience speaker and then I started taking on roles in advocacy to inform, government round tables and things like that because there was no lived experience, voice being heard at that table.

And when I’m not there, the industry can say and do whatever they want and everyone’s polite about it, just accepting whatever they want instead of what is actually important for consumer wellbeing. And so, I realized very quickly that I needed to be more active in that space and look for more opportunities to be that voice where there wasn’t one.

And yeah, it just kind of grew from that. And then I trained to be a recovery coach and. I have had the deep pleasure of walking with people, through the darkest moments of their life and helping them to connect with their humanness and be okay with the fact that, yeah, mistakes have happened, but that’s not who you are.

And how can you utilize what you’ve actually learned through those experiences to transform that space, whether it be in a drinking, drugs, whatever the person’s going through to transform that space, their workplace, their friendship group, their family, into a healthier wellbeing environment.

Simon: Yeah. there’s this huge value in the lived experience and sharing lived experiences and both from your very public sharing of your story, on this podcast and the TEDx talks and all the other talks that you’ve done, but also in those group moments as well with those initial moments.

I’m wondering, does gambling addiction discriminate? What are the kinds of people that would walk through the door? Would they be your moms, dads, professionals? what’s the kind of demographic that you were seeing in the people that you’ve worked with?

Gambling does not discriminate

Kate: Yeah. Gambling does not discriminate. It covers all cultures, all age groups. Basically, Australians are vulnerable by default because of the gambling environment that we live in and accept as normal in our current state. So, people are attracted to it in a variety of ways, and the online space is even more predatory than land-based, as land-based exploits, social spaces. The online space, does not discriminate in any way, shape or form. And because we don’t have any protections against overseas predators it’s the wild west. So, I’ve had elderly women in rural New South Wales who’ve actually been sent iPads from gambling companies so that they can keep gambling.

 for the sports betting side of things, the land based, love to have VIP rooms and that, exploit that relationship with the venue. For the online sports betting if you bet a certain amount, you’ll get a VIP manager and they’ll VIP manage you all the way to jail or death without any pause or consideration.

No remorse. there, there is just a litany of Australians who are now either serving time or have served time because of that VIP managed relationship with online companies that’s why we have 800 ads a day in this country. Gambling ads. The UK has 11 a week. We have 800 a day because they need to get more people because they burn through an individual’s cash resources so quickly that they’ve got to find new customers to exploit.

Simon: And I guess at the, the current moment, and even thinking 10 years ago, it was the GFC, the aftermath of the GFC, and then now we’ve got this post covid inflation crisis and, the housing market is just crazy.

And so, the financial impacts over time, both 10 years ago when you were going through this particular part of your journey, but also now the financial strain that comes with gambling addiction, because you need that money to gamble. you had access to 30 grand from building a house.

Other people, it could be their pension choosing between a pokey machine and putting the lights on at home. Can imagine that’d be absolutely distressing for some of the people that you work with.

Kate: Definitely. people exploit a whole variety of the payday loans.

That’s why there’s a multitude of them these days. when I first was experiencing gambling, I was sent to credit cards in the mail. just activate it, you’re good to go. Because the gambling, the banks knew because there’s certain codes. That that register that their customer is gambling, whether it be accessing cash in gambling venues.

So, they’re just like, yep, it’s this green light, this all the way to the bank. So, when I was at the end of my gambling, I’d accumulated $80,000 worth of credit cards. And the financial counsellor that helped us get back in control of our finances was absolutely heaven sent because we didn’t know how to manage it or we thought we were going have to declare bankruptcy.

And, it was an extremely stressful time, but to be able to build new financial goals, bring that transparency to the financial environment that, you’re trying to exist in is so important to get that support for people to, again, exit that level of shame.

Simon: Yeah. and you mentioned that you got into advocacy and trying to promote the lived experience of gambling and try to, make change happen in gambling reform. can you tell us a bit about the Hope Project and what you do there and, how hard is it being to get people to open the door and listen to your story?

Kate: Very hard. I think when I first started being a lived experience speaker What stood out to me was people would come up and say, wow, what you said made sense, but I struggle with drinking, or I struggle with being a workaholic, or I struggle with online scrolling, or whatever it is. And I thought, wow.

 I thought initially I would just be trying to, create change in the gambling space. But what became pronounced to me was that we’d really lost our way as far as being able to be a sustainable human being. to understand self-care, self-awareness and self-esteem as being those things that we need to connect with on a day-to-day basis to operate in a sustainable way.

And so, that was part of trying to go upstream and make that information more palatable I think the first gambling, awareness workshop I ran, you can imagine not many people wanted to come forward and talk about it. So, I was like, hold on, let’s, let’s reframe it as proactive resilience.

 how can we build in this awareness? And then still using my story to create that safe space for people to connect with their own, struggle in whatever that looks it just went from there to being more broadly understanding addiction in our culture.

So, I would speak in schools, workplaces, community groups. But in the last probably four years the advocacy space and just that shift in there being more like the media covering gambling harm in a completely different light. it used to be just focused on the individual story, and now it’s about exposing the industry and the horrific harm that’s happening in our communities without people being aware of not only the financial losses that are happening, but the fallout of that.

 So, the domestic violence, the intergenerational poverty, the mental health issues the crime. All of those things go hand in hand with having a massive venue in your neighbourhood. So, if you think, oh, I don’t even gamble, or that doesn’t involve me, it does. Gambling harm is impacting your life, whether you are aware of it or not.

Whether you’re a small business owner in close proximity to a gambling venue, you are losing revenue

Simon: Yeah. And so, what’s next for, the Hope project? what’s your vision for, the next year and the next 10 years, and where would you like to take it?

Kate: Well, I’ve actually just taken on a new role as the national manager for lived experience speakers in Australia. So, I’m really, really proud to be working with the Alliance for Gambling Reform in helping coordinate all of those precious stories and people’s experiences to really harness a movement of change.

And that, to me that I’ve been working for free, doing this hardworking advocacy because I knew there was no one else there doing it. And, to be actually sought out now in whether it’s consulting or hard roles, things like that, it’s just that fruit of that hard work that I’ve been the only unpaid voice in the room for a long time.

And it’s been frustrating, but, Finally,

The impact of addiction on the family

Simon: Yeah. I’d like to touch on your husband actually. And the support that he’s provided over the years. Tell us a bit about Phil and, the support that he’s had and the value of having open conversations with your partner because it does impact your family

Kate: It’s been a journey. we were 20 when we got married and we thought we were big people and knew who we were, but we didn’t understand anything about the life struggles that we were going to have to endure.

And so, for him that night, I almost didn’t come home. He really shifted from a place of judgment to a place of compassion. he finally understood that the things that he was saying to me were unhelpful. That I needed him to be supportive, not judgmental about what I’d experienced.

And then, the full circle of that coming back to, the mental health impact that the whole environment of gambling harm had on our family. that that made him work harder and, disconnect. So having to kind of encourage him back to life and back to connection was really, really important.

And that came five years after my recovery. So, it’s been a journey and it’s miraculous that we, have survived as a married couple. But I think it’s that true witness of, the vows that you take.

 it’s not just, we are here for each other in the good times, but how can we work to improve our lives and then the health of our marriage and see that transform the lives of our children?

 and I remember once, after I gave a talk, this woman in the audience said, so, you were an addict and your husband was struggling with mental health issues. How are your children? And I was just like, okay, no judgment there. I said to her, look, they’ve witnessed a lot of things, that I wish they hadn’t.

But they’ve also witnessed a lot of healing. And I think that that’s so important in it’s not just glossing over the bad parts, but creating the space for them to be there and for their experiences to be validated and to be encouraged to have that open communication and I don’t act like I’m better than them there’s just that kind of leveling off we’re all human, we’re all figuring this thing out.

And so, there’s a real ease in being able to talk about whatever it is that they’re going through and knowing that there’s that space in the future, if anything else arises, there’s nothing that’s off limits.

Simon: Yeah, you touched on a beautiful moment there showing vulnerability to our children. for 20 years I bottled my mental illness up for and didn’t talk to anybody about it.

And it wasn’t until my now wife encouraged me to go see my GP 10 years ago and start a mental health discussion. But now I’m a dad and start of this year I had a really d down period and, and I found, found myself just sobbing in the lounge room or in the bedroom. And my, my kids, I got, they’re young, but they still could un identify that dad wasn’t quiet, happy or he was upset for some reason.

So, they’d come and give me a cuddle and they were the best cuddles, even though I didn’t want them to see me crying, but I didn’t hide away from it either. I just accepted it and, and cried in front of them. And I think that’s a really valuable thing that they can learn is that, Mom and dad are human too.

Mm. just they cry when they get upset. Mom and dad cry when they get upset and it’s okay. and we can, we can push through that. So, I really liked how you shared that story and highlighted that point. I think that’s something that a lot of, modern day parents are really trying to tune into is accepting that vulnerability.

Vulnerability in their lives and just letting it show and living that authentic life. taking off the mask and just leaving it off and saying, this is me. I’ll work through it. I don’t get it right all the time. I’m not a perfect parent, perfect partner, perfect person.

It’s really important, I think, moving forward thinking about your journey even before 18, before you started pokies, but now particularly your addiction journey as well. What’s something that highlights to you that you’ve discovered about yourself that you’d like to impart onto to some of our listeners in case they might be experiencing an addiction, whether it’s gambling or drugs, alcohol, whatever it is, I guess, to give them some sort of hope that change is possible and maybe where could they turn to?

 is it their GP, is it a hotline? Is it the Hope project? is that something that you can help with as a recovery coach?

Where to get support for addiction

Kate: Absolutely. I’m happy to connect with people if they want and help guide them into, services that may be more suitable. But I think it’s really, really important that a person feels seen and heard and validated in their experience.

I think often, especially If you try and share your stuff with a loved one, they’re just going to try and rush to solutions rather than actually validate your experience. And, that can be kind of, it’s just an instinct that we do. We just want to rush to solution, solution, solution without allowing the humanness and the experience, the growth to happen in its own time.

So, I think it’s really, really important that we have those supportive relationships, but to not necessarily look to them as having the solutions that only you can never kind of come up with. But in order to access those solutions, you have to feel safe. And if you are not feeling safe, then it’s prolonging that process.

So, if you are trying to explain to somebody what you’re experiencing and they’re just going, yes, but, or, but you’re not focusing on the right thing, or you, and the person’s just you are not getting it, then they’re not accessing that place of safety, feeling seen and feeling heard.

So that’s a really important thing. if your counsellor, if your GP, if they’re not validating your experience, just thank them. Go find someone else. And absolutely that’s step one, feel safe then everything else can be built on that.

Simon: Yeah. I love how you said that because I often say that to the people that I work with.

If I’m not suited for you, that’s okay. I do the same when I’m looking for a therapist, I’m like, okay, I’ve got a multiple condition. So, for example, once for a long time I was just dealing with depression and I never dealt with the O C D that had been around since eight years old.

And so eventually I got to a point where maybe I need to target the O C D in me. So, I started hunting around for an O C D specialist. and then it’s also about interviewing your psychologist, your GP as well, and saying, how much experience do you have in this? How much experience do you have in gambling addiction?

Do you even know what it is? Encourage each other to interview our therapists and GPS as well, then we can start to hone down and bring down the world of their support and target it to where we actually need it.

 But once you find that right fit, you hold onto them.

Kate: Be curious with yourself, be curious about what else is going on, what other things are at play. But if you just focus on, I am the problem, you’re missing all of that information.

Simon: What’s some of the, the things that you about yourself now that you’ve gone through this journey and you’re doing this so publicly to help other people?

Kate: I’ve always been a hospitable person, and I think that that hospitable nature just makes me accessible to people.

And seeing that invitation that I don’t even have to explicitly say, but just through sharing my story, it just creates that bridge of vulnerability to another person. I think my humour just being able to laugh with people even through tragic circumstances can be really, really powerful at transforming those spaces.

I didn’t let gambling harm robbed me of me being a mum. That was something that I’d always wanted to be, and I thought that I was unworthy of it, and that was a big reason why, yeah, I almost took my life, but not allowing that to win. And being at my son’s wedding on the weekend was just everything,

So, I guess there’s so many things that I’m grateful for, but being able to really utilize all of those experiences now so to create change is so powerful,

Simon: I’ve loved this discussion and how vulnerable you are around your story and it is powerful story to go through and often the ones that are powerful are the ones with a lot of pain and hurt that are involved, but also a lot of triumph and overcoming adversity as well.

So, you do have an amazing story. So, thanks so much for coming on. I really have enjoyed this discussion. But there’s one question I’ve got left that I always ask my guests as well, it doesn’t have to be anything to do with what we’ve talked about today. Something that you can pay forward though to our listeners.

And so, I always like to, know, can you plug something that makes you feel good in the moment,

 What’s something that makes you feel good?

Kate’s feel-good plug

Kate: Two really quick things. Singing is everything. just pumping the music in a car, that was one of the key things that helped me get from point A to point B. When normally, my mind would try and hijack me to take another route and go to a gambling venue, just staying in the singing of the songs.

Means you’re not thinking about other things. So that was one of the, the things that I employed to keep me on track in the early days. And I still love singing. But I think this is us. the series is just beautiful at, kind of unpacking lots of different moments in life and, and how, we can approach them.

And I think that that’s a really, really beautiful series.

Simon: Awesome. So cool. Did you have a go-to song that you used to always sing?

Kate: I love Dark Horse by Katy Perry. that is my ultimate. I just Go crazy on that. And at the moment it’s Beyonce’s comfort. I love it. So yeah, just songs like that.

Simon: Awesome. Wonderful. Kate, thanks so much for getting mindful about addiction with me.

I really have enjoyed this and I hope you’ve enjoyed coming on the show and sharing your story. And I’m sure that our audience would love to, tune into this one as well. where can people find you if they want to find out more information? I will put the links in the show notes for people to access.

 Facebook and Instagram. I am on Twitter as well. Feel free to email me or Facebook Messenger me if you want me to help, connect you with some further support.

Kate: I’m more than happy to.

Simon: Wonderful. Thanks so much Kate. I really enjoyed this. Have a great day.

Kate: No, it’s lovely meeting you Simon. Thank you for all the work that you do for men.