Simon: G’day guys, and welcome to another episode of The Mindful Men Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about one of my favourite topics, men’s mental health, and how men having real conversations about their mental health can inspire others to seek help.

And joining me for today’s conversation, I’ve got Cameron Thayer from North Brisbane. How you going, Cameron?

Cameron: Yeah. Well, thanks. Simon, good to be here.

Simon: Oh, it’s good to have you here. I’m really excited for this chat. Now you’re a, dad, of two beautiful boys, a husband as well. You’re a CEO of a community non-for-profit organisation called Karakan. And I’m really keen to explore what that is and what Karakan does for the clients I always love starting off with dad chat, and I’m interested to know a bit about your journey through fatherhood and what it means to you to be a dad as well.

Cameron: Yeah. Great, great place to start. I have two wonderful boys, one who’s nine, almost 10, and one who’s 12 going on 18. And they’re just bundles of energy. amazing young men in their own way. And, the experience of fatherhood for me has been a real mirror.

And at times it’s been a confronting mirror. It’s been a mirror of joy. It’s been a mirror of the role that we have in shaping human lives. But it’s also them being a mirror of what am I bringing to that. And where some of those things come from, and recognizing that whilst I had a, a good father the way that we were disciplined in my father’s era was very different.

So, I’ve had a lot of shedding and a lot of learning and finding new ways to, so that I can shape these bold young men to take on the world. But it’s the most humbling, challenging, and rewarding part of my life.

Simon: thinking back to day one of fatherhood and, and knowing now about parenting and what it means to be a dad what would you tell yourself

Cameron: I would tell myself that, first of all, you’ve got to learn to be kind to yourself, because if you’re a little, give yourself a little bit of grace as a human being, but also as a father, then there’s a space for you to share that with children and also provide that grace and that space for them.

I think if you hard on yourself and you have a very rigid way of viewing yourself and others in the world and expectations, then that flows onto how you see and, work and experience fatherhood. So, what I’ve learned is soften the edges in how I treat myself is allowing me to also have a space that I can allow my children to make mistakes and learn.

And that it’s teaching by a thousand moments. it’s not a single moment that’s going to wrap everything up as a father and that, takes patience with myself.

Simon: Yeah. I love that. Now, let’s go back a bit further though, before fatherhood, and I always like to hear the backstory of my guests and where they grew up.

Tell us a bit about, growing up, your dad and that relationship and how that’s influenced, your thoughts and your career pathways and so forth. I’d love to hear about this journey.

Cameron’s childhood challenges

Cameron: I was born in Tasmania in 1982

 my mother was a school teacher. My father was a chiropractor. We were a middle-class family enjoying, life on a farm. I grew up riding bikes and stacking out of trees and, and falling off horses and, it was such a wonderful way in that aspect to grow up in nature and in that sort of community.

I had a younger brother who was a year and a bit younger than me. When he was six, I was seven. Unexpectedly my mother passed away. She had an asthma attack and she died from that. But then what I came to learn, and then as I built some of my memories as I got older, I also realized that my mother had some of her own mental health challenges.

That there were some real challenges that were imposing on her ability to live life and have relationships. And I remember some kind of irrational kind of situations, but not understanding as a child what that was, but being in the eighties well, she died in 1990. Our education and awareness of mental health was a lot lower then than it’s now.

So that was a game changing point for us as a family. My father was a bit of a workaholic but he was a good man. He worked hard, but work was probably also his rescue. So as young children, having a father that was at work a lot and needing to provide. And our mother that was no longer there naturally my father remarried.

That was his solution. And that comes with a whole lot of dynamics. mourning a loss of a parent and then having a new parent in the picture. And was an amalgamation of two families that were very, very different. Very different in many ways socioeconomically maybe in terms of values but also in terms of the experiences that we’d had in life.

So that was a real challenge, bringing two different worlds together. What that resulted in over the next probably three years, up four years until I was probably 11 or 12 was different levels of abuse that started to come into play. There were some members of our now new family that, were fairly violent at times and so that posed some real challenges for us as children.

As a result of that, I became quite a disconnected teenager and quite rebellious and was kind of acting out a lot. But as a result of that and, the buildup of some of those things happening in our home, and my father would be away for weeks at a time working in different parts of Australia, we became to feel quite unsafe.

Homelessness at a young age

Cameron: So, I actually left home at 13. After being away for a couple weeks, the police dragged me back and, and I stayed at home again for another couple of months. And then just after my 14th birthday, I left again and again, the police drove me back and I said, well, unless you guys are going to tie me down, I won’t be staying here.

So that was an interesting part of life. And I remember my father not really knowing about all the violence that was happening when he was away. And then when you are someone who’s dealing with abuse, you don’t tell people often. And that’s part of the cycle challenge. I remember him saying, I can’t stop you from leaving.

 And he saw me just as a delinquent young man. He didn’t realize what was sitting under the surface and why. And I remember he gave me $10 and he in my hand and he said, good luck. And I took the $10 and probably bought a pack of smokes, and off I went.

And I spent the next nine months living on the streets in park benches and living on the beach and back of service stations. after that, nine months on the street, the next few years was living in different places. a youth organization helped me find a, a little house it was for homeless young people. I remember walking in after being on the streets for nine months, walking into this unit. By this stage I was down in Brisbane and I was trying to get back into school because I hadn’t been in school for almost a year. And I remember this youth organization saying, we want to help you have a stable life and you deserve help.

And I remember hearing those words and it was almost like, wow, I’m not alone and maybe I do deserve help. Cause when you the streets, people don’t want to see that people walk around that they walk away from that. And so, I was used to being that part of society that yeah, people don’t talk to. So, to have someone say, it’s ok, we’re in your corner and you deserve help here was a great thing.

 I remember they got me this little house in Marsden. I remember walking into the house and it was covered in cockroaches and that would’ve put someone else off. And yet here I was thinking, I’ve got my own place, this is fantastic. And that was the beginning of trying to find my own way as a young man.

Simon: were you homeless in Tassie?

because I’ve lived in Tassie and it can be a brutal place even when you have a house, in terms of the climate and the conditions and I guess the services around So, talk us through that part.

And then how did you get to Queensland? what was it like being on the streets?

Cameron: when I was 11, we moved to Queensland My stepmother and my father and my younger brother.

I remember just feeling so homesick after my mother passed away, within a couple of years, both her parents, which were very close to also passed away. And so, for me Tasmania was the place I knew. Tasmania was the place of loss; it was still home. And so, coming to Queensland was, I mean, the kids are different. The culture’s different. we called it a water bubbler and they called it something else. And I was just like, what is this? who are these people with weird looking blonde hair everywhere.

And so, I was used old boots and, riding my bike out the back of the farm. So that was a real transition.

So that was a, that was really hard cause I think after losing the primary people in our lives and then being in an unknown place, it was another layer of loss in its own way. And so, over the next couple of years, up until the age of 13, it was really just navigating the challenges within our home and some of the domestic violence that was actually happening.

And so being on the streets obviously wasn’t in Tasmania. I started from Coolum and I was on the streets in, in Coolum for a couple of weeks and then went down to Runaway Bay down in the Gold Coast. And I was actually with another guy who was 18. He had a car, the car probably shouldn’t have on the road, but it was the thing that he used to get around, but it was also our house. It’s what we slept in for that first couple of months. There was him, he was 18, his girlfriend, me and another guy from my school who was also in a hard home life and two dogs all living in a car all traveling around. And I remember we would have the police every night would come and knock on the window.

Cause we were parked at the front of the tennis club and they’d say, you guys can’t, you can’t be doing this. You can’t be living in the car. What’s really interesting is at the age of 14, I never remember them saying, why are you here? Why are you homeless? Where’s your parents? I never got taken back to a police station.

 I found that fascinating as I look back as an adult now and being in, in the community sector myself. So, what I would do is because they’d wake us up every night, I got tired of that. So, I would just sleep on the park bench in front of the car because I knew that that’s where I’d end up anyway.

And so, I’d just sleep on the park bench and the guys would get woken up every night. I’d say That sucks, and I’d just keep sleeping on the bench. I was there for a couple of months in the Gold Coast and we used to have a gurney, a water pressure system, and we go around to people’s houses and ask them if they’d let us clean the driveway so we could make some money so that we could feed ourselves.

And I remember one day thinking, I don’t want this to be the rest of my life. And I saw other homeless people that lot than me that have been on the streets for many years and I thought that, that can’t be me.

I’ve got to get out this. So, I remember sticking my thumb out on the highway and going to the big wide world, the big smoke of Brisbane, which I hadn’t been to before and hitchhiked my way there and knocked on someone’s door and said, I’m here and I want to kind of start changing my life can you give me a hand??

Simon: where did life take you from there? did you go back to school? how did you essentially move forward with life and then ultimately become a CEO of a nonprofit organization?

Cameron: I did get back into school.

That was a bit of an on and off journey, because I was still living either on my own or in a youth house. and working,

What happened was I, spent the next two and a half years in Brisbane and up until the end of year 11, and I had this strong feeling, I don’t know why, that I wanted to be closer to my younger brother and in some way get to know my father, even though there was a strained relationship.

 So, I left Brisbane and I went back to the Sunshine Coast,

And by this stage he’d started to separate with my stepmother and he was living with my younger brother. And I got a little house down the road. I saw my father interacting with my younger brother, and I saw a different man. I saw this man that was connected with his son.

I saw a man that the angry tiger, the angry lion that I’d seen throughout my childhood had quieted down. My father at this stage was in his early sixties, I want to get to know him. Something’s changed in this. And so, I started to get to know him and spend some time with him.

Loss and mental Health

Cameron: I was very cautious. I was a bit distant, but I’d go for ice cream and I’d have a chat with him and I remember schooling and after three months of being there and spending that time again unexpectedly. One day our father was taking me and my brother he’d giving us a lift to work. We were working at a little shop on the weekend and he had a stroke as he was driving and he rode the car off and he died as a result of that stroke in the car. Me, my younger brother was in the car and my father was taken to the hospital and, then later, two days later, pronounced dead. And so here we were. Now, my brother was 15, I was 17, and, and we were orphans, and that kicked in a whole lot of things for me. I guess the state of mind and strength that I’d started to build over the last few years probably took a real dive because I just felt this unfairness in life. I felt abandoned. I just couldn’t believe that it even happened. So, I, I was very affected by drugs and alcohol as a 17-year-old. And, use that as a self-medication means I convinced my brother Tasmania and live with our older sister because I didn’t want him to see me go down.

And I then end up having an accident later that year. where I hurt my leg very badly, I had to go in for a number of surgeries and operations. But the reason why I’m telling you this is because where that led me to was sitting on the couch at a mate’s place, no job because I couldn’t work because of my leg struggling for money, thinking what is my life going to become here? But something happened out that the next two years I struggled with my leg trying to get it right surgeries, infections. And I was told by a number of surgeons that I would have a permanent ongoing disability in my left leg where that led me to and by this stage, I was a very angry, very non-trusting. Again, I used alcohol as a way to, medicate and they’d asked me to go to a pain clinic as a way to start learning how to manage my leg because it was not a great prognosis. And I remember sitting with the psychologist in the pain clinic and she said, let’s talk about you

 she saw right through me. She saw this hardened young man that really was a, a soft-hearted young fella underneath, but had kind of given up a bit. Mm. And I thought I was there for my leg, but she was there for me, my soul. Because what I learned in that probably eight weeks of weekly sessions that changed my life, changed my life because I realized that I was a victim.

I was an in-victim mentality. I had every reason why life wasn’t fair. I had an excuse. And in that time, I thought they were real because I’ve lost my mum and dad and I’ve had accidents and I’ve been a street kid and you can’t tell me that life’s fair. It’s just not going to work for me. When she helped me see some strategies and she referred me to a book called Be Happy.

And I read that and it was really basic, kind of CBT type thinking, cognitive behavioural therapy and other things. And I realized that I was stuck in the rear-view mirror and that was creating what was happening in front of me. And when I realized that I could reframe that and I didn’t have to live in the past and I wasn’t defined by the past, it made me realize I then got to choose who I was going to become.

 that was a liberating moment in my life. And from that I realized I went on a real journey of kind of self-discovery. And that’s what led me to say I want to help other people that are victims or in victim mentality, which led me to go to universal study psychology. And getting to the human services sector over a number of years and then later doing my MBA master’s in business so I could have a, a better ability and a fuller appreciation of how to lead and run services and organizations that can add value and that can create impact.

Simon: You mentioned victim mentality do you feel like there is a place for that victim mentality to a certain degree, as a protective measure or as a processing grieving type measure?

Or do you think it’s something that we really need to let go of?

Embracing lived experience to help others

Cameron: I think there’s a difference between the things that have happened to us defining us. And, that being the reason and not being able to see possibility past that.

I think allowing it to validate not seeing that there’s a different way forward, I don’t think that’s healthy. What I do believe though is I know for me, my passion that I bring to my career and it’s helping people, it’s fuelled every day by remembering what it was like to be marginalized and forgotten what it was like to be in the corner, feeling like there was no hope.

And I remember as I started to come out of that, I thought to myself, I never want somebody else to feel this way. If there’s something I can do, I’ll do it. And so, where I’m going with that is, I don’t forget the past because that’s what’s shaped me and that’s what I need to continue to learn from because it helps me empathize and connect and it helps me break barriers so I can lean in to people with their lives and have real conversations.

But I don’t need to be a victim in order to do that. I need to remember the story and then remember the experiences. But I need to reframe cause if I stayed being a victim, I wouldn’t be able to help anybody else.

Simon: I was thinking about my own journey and, often I hear in the mental health and the disability space that my mental illness and my disability don’t define me.

And I had a great chat with a social worker recently, is that it doesn’t necessarily define us, but it refines us. And if we can use that as you said, that history to learn and continue to grow from and acknowledge that it happened. But then also put a bit of flame to the fuel and then use that for your passions as well.

I think that’s where it can become actually a really powerful thing. And it’s the power of shared lived experience, particularly in the mental health disability space, is when you’ve walked in similar shoes, not necessarily the same shoes, but similar shoes, it can really bring about connection quicker and healing quicker as well.

Cameron: absolutely, and I think it fuels us to do things that take that stretch in ourselves as people. That lived experience can really be an important ingredient in pushing those barriers in order to find new ways and in order to reach people that are really on the margins. I would not ask for some of those experiences ever again, but at the same time, I’m grateful that it’s helped me see life through a lens that the human spirit is alive and I want to keep that alive.

Simon: Yeah, absolutely. And so, you did your psychology degree, did you ever practice in psychology or is it something that gave you the theoretical framework to then move on to what you do now?

Cameron: Yeah, look, I, intended to become a clinical psychologist after doing my undergraduate, I was also getting married at that point.

and then as I started to work in frontline services, I came to realize that for me, the circle of influence, I wanted to have, whilst I thought it may have started with being in a one-on-one setting, I realized that I had an interest in running services.

So, I spent some time in, in youth services. I spent some time in private education for people that were disadvantaged.

And then after doing that for probably six or seven years, I probably hit a little bit of burnout in that space. And wanted to broaden my skills. So, I decided to go into risk management for about three years, which was a very different direction. I think I was looking corporate experience. I wanted to widen my understanding of business and what business acumen looks like outside of the not-for-profit context. And so, I spent three years and that was actually really valuable because I ended up working for a major corporation and seeing how businesses run in different way.

And whilst that was excellent for the brain, after doing it for a few years, I realized that my soul was hungry for purpose. And then I really channelled back into the community sector, but brought that business acumen and that exposure I had back, which then led me to say, I think doing my MBA would be a, a nice way to bring some of this learning together.

I then spent three and a half years with Carers, Queensland on the executive team there as general manager of strategy, which was a great experience. They’re a great organization. And then onto now the CEO role that I am in currently.

Simon: You mentioned two things that I often put together in the same sentence is burnout and wanting purpose.

Cause I’ve, you know, experienced very similar in my own burnout story, trying to rediscover purpose and passion which led me back to refining my mental health journey and to social work now.

 I’d love to hear your story on burnout and what was driving you to find purpose?

You, mentioned that you were in married life as well, were kids around. How did you navigate all of that? In what I call a hot pot of mental health?

Experiencing burnout

Cameron: I remember over, the last 6, 7, 8, 9 years, I’d had people say, me sometimes Cameron, you need to slow down., And I’m fine, this is what I’m a type A personality. I’m motivated by challenging the status quo. I enjoy connecting with people, I enjoy helping people. And I’ve got the energy to burn here. So, I found myself in fairly demanding roles in my professional life, but found myself in fairly significant roles in volunteering. And, I thought that was normal. There were times where I felt my plate was very full. And now, obviously over the last 12 years having children, there were times where professionally, this volunteer work and my children and my marriage, I started to feel that my family were sometimes on the bottom of the list.

And it wasn’t my intention, but it was saying yes to certain things and then realizing you didn’t have enough room to say yes to other things. this came to a bit of a challenging kind of end of the road point. Beginning of last year, I was in a significant volunteer role that was taking a lot of time and my nature, I’m a people pleaser trying to work on that.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it needs to be in the right measure. And so, I found myself in January last year from the moment I woke up to 11 o’clock at night, I was either working or volunteering or doing something of that nature. And I was staying the feel of real values conflict.

My children were not getting the time that I felt they needed from me. I wasn’t able to provide the support I wanted to provide for my wife and my family. And I actually remember a few times thinking, it was like the water was up here and I was just, just keeping my head above water.

And I remember going, yeah, but that’s normal. You’ve always had that going on. So, it was almost saying myself Suck it up. there was an inner voice telling me something, but my need to please seeking the external validations and therefore feeling of worth through those external validations.

That inner voice didn’t get heard at all. What happened was in the beginning of February, I found myself starting to get dizzy and I’d be at work and I’d have to steady myself a little bit. And then that started turning to brain fog where I couldn’t think clearly, and I was very slow.

 And I remember I was in the office trying to write an email, and I couldn’t even get the words out of my brain. And I was dizzy. And then I started to get these tremors where I was kind of these jolts and tremors.

I remember calling my wife and I was in tears at, at work saying, I can’t function. I’m not ok. I don’t know how to do this. I was really confronted by not being in control of my own body and my own mind. I remember then deciding to go to the doctors. And on the way to the doctors, I had to pull over cause the dizziness was so much, and it’s what I believe was a panic attack.

Now, these words would never come out of my mouth before that time I was too prideful. I’m a man. We get the job done. That’s for someone else’s story. It’s not mine. And yet here I was having this happen and I went to the doctors and I shared with them what had been happening. And they said, well, we’re going to do some tests.

And they did a CT scan and made sure there’s no brain tumour, that sort of thing. And they came back and said, there’s nothing of that nature that’s happening and you got to look at your life and your stress factors. And even at that point I thought, stress mate, I’m fine. I was 39 years old at the time.

Come on. But I spoke to a friend of mine who was older than I had been through some of this and been in high roles professionally and also dealt with stress and burnout. And when he shared his story, I related to some of the things including the dizziness and the breakdown of the body and so I decided, for me, everyone’s journey’s different, but I decided to go see a naturopath because I just wanted to start and get a bit of a feel for just settling myself.

And, that was really helpful cause she did a lot of talk therapy, but she also did some other things that helped me challenge some of my own mindset. But what came out of this is a couple of things. One is, I didn’t know how to say no. I’d spent my whole life saying yes because I wanted people to like me.

I wanted to be accepted and I wanted to therefore be able to like myself. And that had driven success in one way, and that had also come at a cost where here I was at 39 years old having a breakdown. I was really, really confronted by that reality.

Simon: I’m interested in what your wife said when you rang how did she help you through that?

was she quite supportive?

Cameron: she was very supportive. she saw the signs, that there were some stress factors starting to and she was very supportive. She was very validating. it’s okay, we’re going to get through this. we’re going to get some help. she was wonderful. And, because that went on for about three months and as a result, I started to withdraw. So, my volunteer role, I couldn’t do it.

That was a high demand role. and people expected a lot from me in that role. I remember sitting with my management team at work and just being open and saying to those that were there at the time, I’ve got some health challenges I want you to know I’m ok. I’m just asking support I’ll get through this, but I need to be transparent So my wife was very supportive to the point where she was very much about Cameron, you need to learn to find out what life looks like now because you can’t keep doing things the way you’ve done them for the last 15 years.

So, she was a real supporter and advocate of what are your hobbies, what are your interests, where are you going to go and have downtime? And I wasn’t someone with many hobbies. I did do camping. I enjoyed camping. but outside of that, I wasn’t someone that had interest because it was all work and work.

So that was a real eyeopener. There’s a couple of key things that came out. One was, it’s okay to say no. No, doesn’t mean no not ever, no means not now. Because whenever I say yes to something, I say no to something else. And I continue to say yes to others, but I would say no to health. I didn’t exercise in 15 years.

I would say no to family sometimes. I was saying yes to the wrong things and no to the wrong things. So, when I realized it was OK to say no, and I had to learn to say that clearly and set boundaries, that was a game changer for me. That didn’t mean I wasn’t a good person or I didn’t care. It meant that I acknowledged that there are limitations and there are priorities.

So that was a really key thing. The second thing was there’s more to me and my identity than my achievements. And so, I started to explore interest and I remember thinking I would like to get a boat and be out in the water and, I live close to the water and, and I was looking at tinnies and my wife said, and I’ll tell you fellas, if your wife ever says this, jump on it when they give you a green light.

 if you’re going to get a boat, get something properly, just make it worthwhile. So, I started looking at good boats. But, the message in that was she was supporting me and I recognized that I needed to find ways to be in nature.

And then that’s provided way to connect with others, to take them out the boat and to fish together and to talk together. I have mates that come out and they share things that are hard on their lives. So that created a space for me to learn how to be outside of always doing and working. And then the other part of that was exercise.

If I didn’t learn to exercise, I don’t know how I would’ve got through some of this. Cause I had an exercise in 15 years and I needed to learn to balance self-care that I was worth to take time to do that. And that’s been a game changer.

Simon: Yeah, absolutely. I was very similar with my green light story.

 I experienced burnout. I was working in public service 15 years and, plus the depression, anxiety, the obsessive-compulsive disorder that I live with. And we actually had a brand, new Hilux on order. And it was just during Covid, so there were no cars coming into Australia. So basically, all the car yards were empty.

 And, and we needed a bigger car. Cause I was driving this old beat-up Corolla that was just on its last legs. And, and then it didn’t come for, for six months and then it was nine months. And we’re like, I’m getting a bit restless. I want this car.

But then at the same time I was struggling with this 15-year career. That was really good. I had amazing jobs and met some amazing people. But it just wasn’t my passion. it was good work, but it wasn’t my passion. It wasn’t lighting me up. It wasn’t me jumping out of bed saying, whose life am I going to change today?

And how can I make an impact as best as I can? So, I said to my wife, I said, why don’t we just forget the brand-new car? Cause we had the money sitting in the bank and just spend half the money on an older car, and then put that other half of the money towards starting Mindful Men as a business and actually starting this journey. And this was her green light moment. And she said, yeah, let’s go for it. If we’re going to do it, now’s the time to do it. And I just, I looked at her, I’m like, how did that work?

because I usually like plug these little seeds, and it just gets battered away. But this time she’s like, you know what, go for it. You’re miserable in your job. I was burning out for a second time almost. My depression was really bad. Like probably the worst it’s been in five to 10 years. something’s got to change and maybe this is the sign, and so we did. I don’t miss that brand new car that I never had. I love my second-hand car, but I love the fact that we’ve started a business, and I say we, because my wife has been a huge part of that process.

She doesn’t do any of the work in the business, but she’s been there for support. she was the main breadwinner for many months, and now that the business is up and running, I’m starting to contribute back

But we couldn’t have done that without that shift in focus and going, okay, where can we better suit our energy, not just have the flashy car, but actually pare back and then follow our dreams and our, and our passions as well.

Yeah. I also wanted to add on there the physical impacts of mental illness as well?

when I had my first burnout story, I had this mysterious back pain that modern science could not identify what was the cause. And so, a specialist got to the point where they’re like, Simon, you’ve just got what’s called back pain.

But as soon as I started finding the hobbies and the joy and the regular exercise, I noticed that as my mental health got better, my physical health got better and the back just stopped hurting eventually. And now it comes and goes here and there, but it was nowhere, like it was excruciating during my burnout

 I could barely lay down without pain, let alone get up and walk around and try to do my job So it’s some really interesting points there around mental health, physical health, burnout, passionate and all Which is so common in so many of these stories, in, the work that I deal with guys.

Encouraging men to be vulnerable

Cameron: And, Simon, you touched on some really key things there. And if you think about the stats, I think it’s one in eight men will experience depression one in five will experience anxiety. Seven out of nine suicides are men.

And, so when you start to look at some of that and, and some of the sociocultural historical behaviours that men are expected and have been expected of men one of them is that we suck it up and we keep on going. And I realized that I’ve even fathered that way at times is that, when, my son said things are hard, I said, buddy, sometimes we just have to knuckle down mate and keep going.

And, and what I haven’t always done is sat and listen and heard what’s he actually trying to say? Is he trying to say he needs help? Is he trying to say he’s struggling and am I teaching him It’s OK to be vulnerable, to be honest because I think we create this kind of stereotypical view of what a man is and the idea that being vulnerable is not a manly trait.

I’m so ready and wanting to challenge that and I’ll do that through my own example. Cause for me, learning to be vulnerable has actually allowed me to be stronger than I ever have. Not, a strong start, but actually feeling strong. And I think if we learn to do that, we actually can teach our sons. But also, our mates and the community and the next generation that actually being vulnerable, being open and knowing that it’s okay to ask for help is actually part of you being stronger.

We don’t have to Superman, but I tell you what, we can feel pretty strong when we’ve got the ingredients right in our lives. and I know for me, being on the streets and all those things, I learned to rely on myself and to not trust others and to not lean on others. And so, even to the point last year that burnout, I had to accept that I wasn’t okay.

I had to accept that I wasn’t as strong as I needed to or wanted to be. And I had to accept that I needed help. Last year, I realized that I didn’t need to be this guy under Cape that just said yes, all the time.

And in fact, I would never be actually happy and I wasn’t even being authentic, and so now when I sit with staff and I hear their story of struggle, I’ve enjoyed creating a space to say, it’s ok. It’s OK to struggle. And it’s OK to share that with your employer. It’s OK to share that with your friends.

I want to continue to kind of lean into that because what I’ve learned is that’s not about our worth. If we accept, we’re of worth, then we can then be honest about the things we need so that we can live for the things we find of worth. And what I’ve found is, rather than us validating our worth through things like status, money titles, et cetera and possessions when we realize that those are empty pursuits and they, they don’t truly define our worth.

When we recognize that, we then liberate ourselves up, need to start to almost have a curiosity. We get ready to explore, well, what do I truly value? What is our worth? And who am I outside of those external things and that superficiality that I get my worth from. Then we start to find out who we are and we go on this exploration of things that we find interesting, things that are meaningful to us, and that brings a full colour of life into play.

And when our children see us do that, then we’re teaching them how to be and how to be human beings, not just human workers and human facades.

Simon: that was amazing how you shared that and I loved how you touched on wanting to provide safe spaces for people in the workplace as well, because often when we experience a lot of mental distress, it is in the workplace where it might come up, it might affect our performance, it might affect our relationships with the people around us.

 and just providing that safe space where, where people and guys particularly can open up to, to somebody and say, hey, I’m not doing okay. And not feel like they’re going to lose them

And I, love how you’re doing that because I’ve been on both sides. I’ve been in workplace environments where; I was scared to say anything and for many years nobody knew I lived with mental illness. I’ve been in environments where I have said something and I’ve been told to suck it up you’re here to work, you’re not here to deal with mental health issues. But then I’ve also been in an environment where I have received the support and I hadn’t taken the time away from work and was supported to come back to work and be a productive worker as well.

So, in that light, I’m interested to hear about Karakan and, and, and you are, you are the CEO of Karakan as a community organization non-for-profit. Tell us about what you do there, what does the organization do? How does it support people? But also, how do you bring in your lived experience and learned experience to support the workers of Karakan to be the best that they can be as well?

How Karakan supports others

Cameron: Yeah. Karakan’s a community, non-profit organization, they’ve been around for 51 years now. And they started from really supporting people that were coming out of institutions and assisting them to integrate into community with housing, with learning new skills, employment, and, finding independence with support, but greater independence in community. That was a really worthy ambition over the years, its guided it’s mission.

Now today we have a great focus on people with psychosocial needs, people with mental health needs, requiring psychosocial supports. And there’s a range of services that we provide that support that, whether it be supporting people in their home navigating life’s daily things as well as, supporting them in the community, accessing activities finding connections in community that are meaningful.

We also support people in housing. So, whether it be living independently, whether it be living with others. there’s a variety of different ways in which we’re now and currently seeking to do that. And whilst we support people with funding through the NDIS, we’re also looking at other ways and means to support what we call the missing middle, the 300,000 in Australia that have mental health needs have needs for supports, but don’t actually receive supports. So, we’re really exploring that space. We do what’s called Psychosocial Recovery Coaching. We’re very passionate about supporting people in their recovery journey and supporting people understanding that each journey’s different, but acknowledging and recognizing where their strengths are, recognizing what’s important to them, recognizing what they bring to that, and how to support, and leverage those strengths in their lives, and build capacity in ways that meaningful and purposeful for their lives.

 we do group activities as well, whether it be about cooking or about self-development, kind of group, what we call flourish. So, there’s a range of programs and services that we provide, but the commonality, all of that is about supporting people to build resilience in their lives.

Our view is when people are feeling resilient, when they have the tools and the confidence, when they have the support and the strategies, they’re able to navigate. The times where we have setbacks in our recovery, the times where we’re having tough days, but also knowing how to enjoy the good days and how to pull on the right supports in order to support them in their journey, we have a very clear mission. We, have this vision of an Australia where people with mental health in our community, they’re not just included, but they’re valued that they bring value

the most important thing for me is, is that we are. Truly mission aligned. Mission focus. For me, culture is where it starts. It’s the old saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast. If we have a strategic plan and we have all the bells and whistles, and even if we have the resources to invest in it, if we don’t truly have a mission, driven culture that’s underpinned by values that we actually buy into that we believe in, that we’re actually willing to kind of, you know, put on the end of our own sword.

 if that’s not the starting place, then all we’re doing is, we we’re being busy and we’re providing some services and we hope it goes well. So, one of my biggest focuses when starting the CEO role, there was, one, are we clear in our mission and does it mean something to all of us? And we realized it wasn’t clear, and it needed reshaping. Two, are the values that have been on the wall for 10 – 15 years. One, have we looked at them recently and two, what do they actually mean? And again, we realized that they weren’t actually meaningful at that time for people. So, we went through a real process of working with our staff

we actually sat down with all of our staff and workshopped, what do you think our values should be? What’s meaningful and out of that process with all of our staff workshopping that, and then taking on customer feedback as a leadership team we brought all that back together and said, therefore, what?

And we came together with three key clarifying, guiding lights as values, inclusion, connection, and resilience because those things are relevant for us personally as people. They’re relevant for us organizationally. They’re relevant at a community level. And so, I wanted to share that. I wanted to ensure that we were buying in.

Because when you’ve got people that do that, you could do great things. When you have people with a vision boy, try and stop them. and I come to work for that every day. And I’m not the smartest guy in our organization. I worked a long time ago. My role was to ensure that people had a clear vision that they felt personally connected to, because I knew a lot would happen just because of that fact alone.

So, I wanted to kind of probably highlight that. Secondly for me, because having purpose for me is really important personally and through my own lived experience,

I wanted to understand their stories and what they’re trying to achieve, and I’ve still got some work to do in some of that space. But I wanted to understand what people’s own experience was, including some of their own lived experience. Cause if we tap into people’s lived experience, then that’s not just about me being able to have empathy and connect with the community.

There’s 20 of us that can do that. And we have people in our own team that have some very powerful lived experience stories. We need to build on that. We need to learn from that and leverage that.

 I’m going to share something personal here. just December gone I lost my younger brother at the age of 38.

He died by suicide after a significant battle with mental health. And I saw the battle of someone who was like you and I. He was successful, family man, married all the things that we say that we want as a member of society. And then I saw him last year have to engage in a system to seek support and how difficult and challenging and traumatic that was.

And he couldn’t get the services and the supports that he needed. And as a result, we now see a man, who’s no longer here with us. I saw his story and I realized there are people coming to us every day that are like my brother. And I don’t want them to have the story that ended the way he’s dead. So, for me, I bring my own lived experience through being homeless and those things.

there’s a new lens now about mental health can impact any of us. It doesn’t discriminate by income or status and seeing him struggle. I have a new determination to say we will not let people go through this alone. And so, I now have a renewed invigoration about how do we connect to those that don’t even know where to start in getting supports and services.

And when they come to Karakan, how do they know they’ve come to a place that they can call home and that they can be safe? And that’s, that’s where my current focus is.

Simon: Yeah. Well, we did talk about that a couple weeks ago when we first connected, and I think, you’ve had a lot of loss in your life, whether it’s, family, it’s connection to where you grew up, your mom, your brother, dad housing security, safety, education and, you’ve pushed through and, and every time I talk to a guy in one-to-one therapy, we reflect on similar life stories.

And, I always bring up this concept of resilience. I was having this conversation with a guy yesterday. I said, when I say the word resilience, what does that mean to you? And he, he just looked at me and he goes, I have no idea. And I said, well, think about all the times that you’ve been down and out and struggling to get through, but you’ve somehow got through whatever way that was, whether it was getting out of bed, whether it was going and seeing a support person, whatever it was.

These are your resilience factors. These are your strengths. You go into this survival mode and you get through. And so, when you are in a bad place, you don’t think about this type of stuff. But when you’re in a good place and you’re doing well, you can reflect back on these things and say, that’s how I got through and this is my blueprint.

And then I can build on that, whether it’s, keeping well maybe, maybe it’s exercising regularly, eating properly, going and see a psychologist taking your meds. Whatever it is that keeps you well so that you don’t have to go back to those dark days. But also knowing that if you do go back to a dark day, you’ve got the strength inside the resilience factors to pull through.

And that really shined through in your story for me and, even that of your brother. Cause when I ask people about what’s your mental health story, it’s not necessarily about what you personally have gone through in terms of mental illness and struggles.

It can be what your family or friend has gone through and how you interact that and reflect on that as well. So, a very powerful story that you’ve got there, Cameron and I really do appreciate you coming on and we talked about right at the start of this episode of saying this is going to be a real conversation.

 And you’ve laid it all out on the table and say, this is me. And this is my passion, and I’m going to use this to refine myself almost, and in my own words, to help people that come to Karakan, or whatever business venture you do next or volunteer thing you do. Also, what you do at home with, the wife and the kids as well. I think it’s, it’s a really great thing that you’ve done in talking about that and that my hope with the Mindful Men Podcast is that these very real conversations inspire another bloke out there, or woman or child or whoever to go, oh, you know what? These guys are talking about it. They seem to be okay.

Maybe there’s a pathway out for me. That is healing, that is hope, that is light, that is connection with community. And maybe I can be an inspiration to someone, if not myself, to other people as well. So, thank you so much for coming on the show and, and sharing your journey. I’ll be putting the links to, Karakan and, I’ll put your LinkedIn profile link as well So that people can just, click on that and access, more information about you. But I like to, finish off on something a little bit lighter. We have gone some pretty dark and deep places. And I always like to ask every guest to plug something that makes them feel good.

It doesn’t have to be anything to do with mental health or what we’ve talked about. It could be what you’re listening to, what you’re watching, what you’re reading, a self-care activity. What’s something at the moment that’s making you feel good?

Cameron’s feel-good plug

Cameron: Yeah, great question.

I love getting out in the boat and being out in nature. there is something about being on the water and you, feel free. I take my boat camping across the Morton Island and a couple of little places, and I’ll take a friend who, I’ll take my sons and we, we’ll camp right next to the water.

There’s something about a campfire and you sitting around it, there’s something, whether it’s primitive in us or something, that when we’re around a campfire, we relax and we start to talk. And I think that’s so important. So, nature and connecting and talking, I think all of us need that and can benefit from that.

And, fellas go out and do it with your kids. If you got kids teach ’em how sitting around a campfire can be therapeutic and safe place and ask about them but find out how nature can be good for your soul as well. And then if you fish, that just tops it off. That is just magic. my final little closing comment on that, Simon, is for me,

I want that serviced all the time. I want that clean, I want that looked after sometimes as blokes we’ll, make sure our car’s got to fine tune or our boat or our lawn mower. But we don’t always recognize that sometimes we need a bit of fine tuning and that we need a little bit of care and we deserve that care. If you want to enjoy boat, you’ve got to look after yourself.

Fine tune yourself, work out what you need so that you can enjoy the things that matter most for a long time to come. Cause you deserve it.

Simon: Yeah. I love it. Cameron, thanks so much for joining me today. I appreciate your time and, and taking time out of your day to, to share your story with the Mindful Men community.

It’s been a, a really great conversation and thanks so much.

Cameron: Thanks for having me. Thanks Simon.