Simon: G’day guys, and welcome to another episode of the Mindful Men Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, A D H D.

 Simon: And joining me for this discussion is Ange Nennie from the Sunshine Coast.

How you going Ange?

Ange: Yeah, so good. Thank you. I’m excited.

Simon: I’m excited for you to be here as well. Now you’re a mom, a wife, and an A D H D coach, and we’re going to explore what you do as an A D H D coach later on. But I’d like to start off with, just finding out a bit more about you and, where you grew up and some of the cool things you’ve done along the way.

And then we’ll get into the A D H D part afterwards.

Growing up on a farm

Ange: Okay. So, chronic overshare, you’re going to need to pull me up if it goes, if I start going down too many rabbit holes. But I grew up in Northwest New South Wales, Inverell and Gravesend, which is teeny, teeny. And so, my family had a farm out there and very remote. And then over the creek was my great-grandma and my great-aunt and uncle and round the corner and down the road what’s my aunt and uncle? Uncle. So, it was definitely a family affair. Yeah. When you climb the mountain, all you can see is just my family’s homes.

Simon: Oh, wow. And, and so describe what tiny town looks like. Are you talking about a couple hundred people or is it just your family or who else is around?

Ange: Yes. So, the tiny town was a couple of hundred people. My grandpa built pretty much every structure in town including the pub where he spent most of his time.

And it was me and my brother at the farm. There weren’t really any other kids around. We drove about 20 minutes into town to go to school, and I think there was probably about 60 people total at the school.

. And that was all from their surrounding district. That’s not just from the town. Obviously out there. Everybody owns a farm, so they’re coming from here, there, and everywhere.

Simon: Oh, cool. And do you remember much about childhood, like, growing up with your brother on the farm and school, like what was that like for you?

Ange: Yeah, so it was very, free range. We had to make our own fun. And I remember being on the motorbike a lot. I rode horses, so I always went to pony camp. I did a lot of horse riding. My family’s a little bit dysfunctional, so my parents throughout that period of time were separating and getting back together.

And we moved a lot. Which is why a lot of my memories are from the time that we spent on the farm, which was my grandparents’ farm. And we sold the farm once my parents, separated. And so, then we moved to Inverell which is.

Where I started going to school. And then you’re talking about a town of say, 10,000 people as opposed to a few hundred. And that’s where I spent the bulk of my childhood. But even then, we were out on Little Farms still moving around a lot. I have memories of like rolling down the gravel driveway on 44-gallon drums, me and my brother racing each other on top of the 44-gallon drums.

But yeah, I guess from some people’s perspective, probably an idyllic childhood and even looking back now, I spend a lot of money buying organic and going back to basics and growing up, that was all readily available to us. So, I remember my great grandma’s place had this massive mandarin tree out the back, and you’d get to Mandarin season and you couldn’t give them all away.

And then there was an orchard on the one side of the house. There was a huge vegetable garden on the other. We’d milk the cow; we’d collect eggs from the chickens. And it’s funny how, I’ve been all over the place lived in New York and now I’ve come back to this place where it’s like I’m craving what I grew up with and was trying to get away from.

Dealing with parental separation as a child

Simon: And so, like growing up, you mentioned that your mom and dad separated. Did you go with mom? Did you go with dad? how did that make you feel?

Ange: Oh, well, they separated quite a few times, and so when people try to get me to tell my story chronologically, that’s actually really difficult because my memories are so fuzzy about that whole period of time. But yeah, so, without going into too much detail, the relationship between my parents was very volatile. Looking back, I always tell people that was the best decision they could have made was to separate. I’m very glad that they did. But yeah, while they were separating and getting back together, it meant a lot of moves, a lot of upheaval and general chaos in my life.

I think my grandma always felt sorry for us because her experience had been, you get married and you stay married regardless of whether you’re. In love with your partner or not. And you make it work. And so, my grandpa, he was a beautiful, sweet man, but he was an alcoholic. And not particularly present. And she just made it work. So, I think she felt very bad for us. And so, she tried to compensate and we, were always at, my grandma’s always going shopping. We got a lot of sugar, as much sugar as we wanted. Whenever, we couldn’t get money from mom or dad for something, we’d go to grandma.

And so, she was our stability through that time. And so, we, trialled initially. Doing week on, week off with my parents. And that was horrible. And we were forever forgetting things and going between and having to pick things up and, oh crap, we need this for that week.

And that was a horrible situation. So, then we moved in with mom for a while, but mom talking about a D h D mom is the poster child for A D H D. We love her, but moms like a big kid. And so that was kind of chaotic as well. So eventually we made the decision to go with my dad. I think we were about 10 at the time, and he was the more sort of geographically stable one.

So that was the rest of my childhood was spent with my dad. So, Dad sort of hit rock bottom after their divorce and started going to church. Shortly thereafter, he married the pastor’s daughter who was 19 years old, so nine years older than me and 19 years younger than him.

And we spent a little time out on the farm before finally moving into town with Heth, who became my saving grace. It was my now ex stepmom who was really the first person that I felt, saw me, listened to me, understood me. I was bullied at school a lot, and so she was always picking me up in the afternoon, taking me out for a milkshake or something and debriefing with me.

And it’s amazing to me, thinking back to the fact that she was 19 years old and. Myself at 19. I don’t think I would’ve been that perceptive.

Simon: So, what was the relationship like with your mom and dad? You couldn’t talk about what was going on or like, why was it so different?

Ange: So, my parents, even when we were out in that tiny town and at one stage, we had the farm outta town, but we were living in town which made it easier to go to school and everything. But they were getting up early in the morning, driving an hour and a half to Inverell for work, driving an hour and a half, an hour and a half back.

So, we were sort of raised by nannies in the mornings and the evenings. I didn’t have a huge amount of contact with my parents also, I think because of the nature of their relationship, they were under a lot of stress. They weren’t particularly emotionally available. And so, we just kind of had to make it work.

And as kids, you don’t. Know any different. And so, you just made it work. And so then when Heth came along, it was really the first time that anybody had expressed any care for my thoughts or my opinions or preferences or any of that. And it was just, I just absorbed it. I had always been known as that kid who was attention seeking and I was really sort of a pain in the ass to all the adults in my life.

I was loud, I was oppositional and defiant and was hard work as a lot of ADHD kids are. So, I think she sort of saw through that, which was the first time that had ever happened and I could not get enough of that love and that connection, which I think is what I’d been craving the whole time and was the reason behind me being an attention seeker.

Simon: What about your brother though? What was the relationship like with your brother and how did he cope from your perspective as well with the separation and, and the moving and all that?

Ange: My brother is a lot more placid and sort of passive than I am. So, he was known for being really hyperactive and impulsive. We got our parents kicked out of like the annual town Christmas pig on a spit do. I remember this one dance that they had where they’d done like a barn dance theme. And so, when we first arrived there, my brother grabbed the first bowl of Chipys.

So, and said, look, I’m the cookie monster, and tipped it over his head and there were chips going all the way down his front. And then later that evening, he got stuck at the top of some of the play equipment. And these days it would never have been allowed, but they had this huge a-frame thing. So, we climbed all the way to the top and they had to get the fire brigade to come and get him down.

And then later that night, we corralled all of the other kids into helping us cut the twine on the hay bales that surrounded the, they were supposed to be the seating, but we cut. And then we had this massive hay fight. And so, we weren’t allowed, and my parents weren’t allowed to bring us back to any of those functions.

So, my brother though, I remember when we moved to, Inverell after their final separation and subsequent divorce. And he would cry on the steps every morning. And I remember comforting him. But even though he was hyperactive, I think he was a lot more introverted and a lot more sensitive.

And probably more emotional than people gave him credit for. He’s also since been diagnosed with a D H D. Turned out he’d been diagnosed before me. He just failed to let me know.

Simon: I can really relate to this kind of story because I remember like, my parents separated on and off for years during my teens.

And so, we were constantly moving with mom and then it got to a point where I’m just like, I’m done moving. But disruption that that causes both from a child perspective, but also from feelings of safety and security absolutely. It’s a lot to digest as a child. Yeah. Particularly a child living with mental illness, my story is one of 30 years living with mental illness and undiagnosed mental illness from eight years old.

So, it was a lot to just process in my brain. And I can imagine it would be very similar to your story and your brothers as well.

Childhood Trauma

Ange: I was thinking about this earlier, like there’s a lot of coexisting conditions that are very common when it comes to ADHD, OCD is one of those.

But even thinking about to the ACEs studies, so the adverse childhood experience studies, there’s a high correlation between a High ACEs score. And A D H D too. And I think it’s become, in my experience, really difficult to overlook some of that nervous system dysregulation that is often present in, cases of chronic stress like we would’ve experienced growing up in the chaos of our parents’ lives.

Yeah. Yeah. And then also, if you’ve been through traumatic experiences and then having a D H D or any kind of mental illness as well is it creates the grounds for that chronic stress. And so then of course, that lends itself to that nervous system dysregulation, which is such a huge piece of what I’m doing now.

Simon: I never really thought about my story as one of trauma but I remember talking to one of my own counsellors over the last six to 12 months. And they said, tell me about childhood. And I was telling him about moving and, and the separation. He’s like, this is childhood trauma.

Yeah. And I’m like, I never really thought about like that. Cause whenever I think about the word trauma, I think of something pretty traumatic happening. Like perhaps a suicide or an accident resulting in an acquired brain injury.

Like I think of this as trauma. Yeah. Not so much the family household splitting up and having to navigate that and what that means in terms of relationships and where you are feelings of safety and security and yeah, it’s been an interesting self-reflective thing that I’ve been doing over the last few months on just what trauma actually is.

Ange: Yeah. And so where have you got to, what’s your definition for trauma now?

Simon: I think it can be big and it can be small. and reflecting on it, perhaps it was the separation and then the associated dysregulation in my brain about how do I manage this as a teenager.

And then like what’s my role in that? And then I guess it was the embodiment of all that trauma inside and me trying to navigate that through an O C D process and then then periods of depression as well, and then thinking like, how am I showing up as a dad, to my kids and, is history going to repeat itself and, I think about this all this time. So, I think it’s just that particular event. As small as I think it was, like it probably had a bigger impact on my life than I, I give it credit for.

But it’s hard to really define trauma from that sense because I’ve never really thought about it. It’s only been something I’ve been recently turning my mind to, and I think I’ve still got to do a bit more digging to really understand its impact on me.

Ange: Kind of like an area of hyperfocus and hyperfocus being like one of the ADHD traits that can be very positive. And that’s sort of been one of those rabbit holes that I’ve gone down as trauma. But I don’t remember where this definition comes from. There’s, particular trauma researchers and people who are well known in that space who have their own definitions. But basically, they define trauma as anything that overwhelms our ability to cope.

So, when you frame it like that, all of a sudden, the scope becomes a lot broader.

Simon: And I, and I like that hyperfocus that you mentioned before as well. Cause I think that was me for 30 years in an o c D mind hyper focused and having, an element of perfectionism to avoid all the anxiety and distress that comes with, things being outta place or not in order.

And I, all that type of stuff. Combining those two. That might be my definition. Ok. This is a workshop now.

Ange: I know. So, polyvagal theory, I’ve been going down that rabbit hole for such a long time now. And yeah, that’s why I said it’s, it’s getting harder and harder to ignore the links that I see between. ADHD and trauma and just that dysregulated nervous system.

Simon: Yeah. And I guess that’ll extend, as you said, similar to O C D I think it’s very similar. But you mentioned New York and I’d love to explore life after school and how did you get to New York? Tell us about that experience and what did you do there?

Pursuing an acting career

Ange: Oh, my goodness. Okay. So, I mean, when I think about my history and my work history, my resume, it sort of reads like a D H D it’s all very disconnected, well, seemingly disconnected. But I left school with the intention of becoming an actress.

And so, I studied acting. I moved to the Gold Coast and for a while I was living in my aunt and uncle’s garage with my cousin’s project VW Beatle. And applying for jobs. And I went for an interview at a Christian school and I had enough Catholic school background to kind of wing my way through the interview and then told them that I was a Christian, which at the time I ha I was definitely not.

And my plan had been to move to the Gold Coast Party, maybe study, acting kind of see where the wind blew me. And so anyway, I didn’t get the job. But then a few months later, I got a call from that school and they offered me a job on reception. I said, yes, I can use a switchboard.

I’ve never seen a switchboard in my life, but I figured it out quickly on the first day. And that’s another benefit of ADHD. So, I’d moved to the Gold Coast. I didn’t really know anybody, and there was a lady in the office who kind of took me under a wing and wanted me to meet some people who were my own age.

And so, she started introducing me to people who were going to church on the weekends, not going out clubbing on the weekends, which was not my preference.

 And so started going to church on the weekends and I was like, it’s fine, so long as I don’t get converted.

And so, then I met a couple of girls who seemed to be really genuine and I kind of enjoyed their company. And so that’s kind of what kept me going along. Next thing, they had like some horrible turnal burn production come through the church and they get basically volunteers from the church to act in this play that essentially tries to scare people into converting. And I was like, I love acting.

And so, I put my hand up for that and it wasn’t until I was about to run on stage and die in a plane crash and my husband was going to be hauled off into hell by demons and I was going to go to heaven that I realized, oh, I’m about to promote this stuff and I don’t even know if I believe it. And then I did a quick assessment of the last six months, and I was like, well, I kept coming, so I guess so.

And then on I went. So, I had started studying acting after that point. And then I started to wrestle with this idea that like how do I go about things like sex scenes and portraying things that don’t align with the values from that whole Christian world. And so, I was trying to get my head around how I was going to position myself in the industry and how I was going to approach some of those trickier, decisions that I, I knew I’d have to make.

And so, then I finished my studies and decided to move to Melbourne. Just randomly, I’d been living with my brother, informed him five days before I left, hey, I think I’m going to move to Melbourne. And so, I packed up my stuff and moved to Melbourne and ended up working in hair salons.

And I was there to pursue acting or so I thought, but I got so busy just trying to live that I didn’t get to do a lot of acting. But in the meantime, I found out about this organization called Youth with a Mission. They were a Christian missions organization and they do all kinds of things around the world, but they had a performing art, discipleship, training school.

And so, I thought. Well, that is for me, I’d been an exchange student on Long Island when I was 16, and I’d always wanted to go back. And it just so happened that this school was right where I had gone to school when I was on exchange, and I was like, oh my God, this is going to be amazing. I’ll get to catch up with all these old friends of mine from high school.

And so, I moved back home to little Inverell, saved up some money, and off I went. That’s how it all started. The production company that I worked with that was a part of the school, you did three months of training and rehearsing, and then you took a musical on bullying and violence on the road. Throughout high schools, around the states. And our tour was focused on the Midwest. So, we did a lot of schools in Indiana. It was like 90 something performances in. 60 days and it was very intense. really incredible though because I’d experienced so much bullying in my childhood at school.

And then it combined my love of acting with my love of working with youth, which, that was the period of time as an adolescent that I went through the most. And so, I really wanted to give back and felt that I had a lot to give back in that space. So just kind of married all these passions so perfectly together and I didn’t have to worry about the whole, what do I do about sex scenes?

Cuz they weren’t none. And so anyway, it was during that school that I met my now husband. He came to speak to our school and I remember sitting there thinking, does he look better with a hat or without. I decided at that point that he looked better with a hat Now, I’d say without.

Simon: Is your husband Australian? Or is he from US?

Ange: No, he’s Dutch. So, he moved to the States when he was 18. And he was there until I dragged him kicking and screaming to Australia.

Simon: And so, you did the the tour of the Midwest, did you continue acting when you got back to Australia or like what did that look like afterwards?

Ange: Yeah, so basically before I even got back, I had applied to come back on staff because I loved it so much. It was just, it, even though it was such an intense experience and to be honest, looking back there was quite a lot of Sort of culty experiences there as well. I mean, at different times we were not allowed to consume coffee because our body was our instrument and to drink coffee was like poisoning it.

And that was, like not something we wanted to do. So, we all had to go and get our fix offsite. There was like a coffee black market happening there. I remember it was the middle of winter when we were touring and we are all on a bus together.

So as soon as one person comes down with something, the whole bus has it. We were dropping like flies. And at one point the director who was vegan she decided that. Everyone needed to, basically consume a lot more vegetables. And so, we were all going vegan for like a week, which caused a massive uproar from a lot of the parents.

Like, so there was some, some different sorts of elements. Oh, and I was forever in trouble with this one other girl who’s also since been diagnosed with A D H D for not getting out of bed in time for workouts. Cuz we all had to do workouts each morning. And also, if you didn’t make your bed and put everything back where it was supposed to be, then you would.

Get extra work duties or they would take your items that were not put away and you would have to pay like nominal fees to get them back. And so, I remember one day they took my entire mattress and everything on it because I’d jumped outta bed to try and make it in time for workout. And in order to do that, I hadn’t been able to make my bed.

So, when they found it, they just took the entire thing and I had to pay them I think it was $3 or something. So, I gave it to them in pennies. I was like, count it.

Simon: Wow. I’m assuming life like wasn’t like that when you got back to Australia?

Ange: I came back to Australia with the intention of going back on staff and I was trying to work in my hometown, but given that it’s a small country town and everybody knows each other, and if you do something, you will be known for doing that thing for the rest of your life. So, you didn’t want to do the wrong thing by anybody.

Hence, I let everybody know, look, I’m planning on moving back to the states. I’m not going to be around for a long time, which limited my work opportunities. And so, I’d been there a few months and I still was, working three jobs and doing 20 hours a week and like, I’m never getting back to the states at this rate.

I’ve got to do something else. Meanwhile, mom had moved to Mount Isa. To work in the mines. She ended up TAFE teaching and working about three other different jobs, as I said, ADHD, poster child. So, she was trying to convince me to go to Mount Isa. I’m like, what am I going to do in Mount Isa?

Mom? Don’t be ridiculous. Anyway, got a job in youth homelessness in Mount Isa and moved up there. I think I spent close to a year there. And then Went back to the states. But by that point, the production company had gone on hiatus because the director was so sick with Lyme’s disease that she had to focus on her health.

And so, I was thinking, what am I going to do going back there? And I was like, well, what? They’ve got a city team. Maybe I’ll join their city team. It’s in close proximity to Broadway. Who knows what could happen? Throw caution to the wind. Let’s go. And it just so happened that my now husband was running that team, and that’s where we met. So, I didn’t go back to acting.

Struggling with Bulimia

Ange: What ended up happening then was another big part of my life. I had struggled with bulimia. Throughout high school and then into my twenties. And even actually on that tour, I nearly lost the role of prom queen because of my bulimia.

And so, they basically gave me an ultimatum, and that ended up being the reason that I stopped. I don’t know how that works psychologically, but the threat of having the spotlight off me was enough to get me there anyway. So, I ran a fashion summer camp, but it focused on self-esteem and body image.

And so, I’d made all these connections in the fashion industry in New York. And after I ran that, it just sort of opened a lot of doors. I started living in a Ukrainian church in the East Village, and I met someone that introduced me to someone and I ended up in the fashion industry and got an internship doing fashion pr, which led to all these other opportunities.

So, for the most part, I was sort of working in fashion while I was over there. Even though I’d gone over to work with this city ministry, I, I just kind of did my own thing, which has kind of been my story.

Diagnosed with ADHD at 35

Simon: Yeah. Now let’s talk about ADHD and I think this is a great way the conversation’s gone because as a therapist, I support people living with A D H D.

So, I understand like the tangents and, and I love it. Very many tangents. It’s fantastic. But it’s a great insight into the life with ADHD. And you weren’t diagnosed until 35 though. So, I’d love to hear that experience, like what it was like going through your childhood, living with A D H D, but not diagnosed until you’re an adult.

And then what that felt like as an adult to go, okay, now I’ve got a label.

Ange: Yeah. Oh, it was so validating and also so heavy. So, I think going through childhood. I always knew that I was different. I mean, in class there was one teacher that used to put a masking tape square around my desk and I wasn’t allowed outside the square.

I had one teacher bribe me with money and chocolate to shut up. I had another, well, many teachers that would just put me in a room on my own to shut me up. Wow. Got me disrupting the class. And then I even had one teacher who put me up the front of the room with my nose on a blackboard, both arms outta basketball in each arm.

And I wasn’t allowed to drop the basketballs. And that was to keep me occupied enough that I wouldn’t disrupt the class. So,

Simon: well, we’re talking about trauma before. I think that’s a definition of what you went through

Ange: I mean, you get away with that stuff today, but small country town and a Catholic school, but I always knew and was acutely aware that I was different. I also struggled socially. And I mentioned before, I was always seeking attention. I hate that phrase because yeah, well, of course, like when somebody’s in pain, they’re seeking help.

So, I also self-harmed that eating disorder is self-harmed. And like I drank a lot throughout my teen years and my early twenties. And they’re all very common experiences of girls, especially with A D H D. But guys as well. And so, looking back all of that stuff, it was like so obvious once I knew.

And even the psychologist that did my assessment asked me at the end of the assessment, like, can I just ask how, how did you get missed? And I said, I don’t know. I think it was just the combination of being in a small country town, a lack of awareness, and at that stage people were more comfortable with there being good kids and bad kids and hmm, I kind of fell into a cheeky kid category, so not necessarily a bad kid that was forever at the principal’s office, it was more just like, oh, Ange like, I was exhausting for people. I think

Simon: I remember going in school in the eighties, nineties and up to the naughties before I went into university and if you had a kid that was in class who was disruptive, who was louder, who was always going to the principal’s office, they would be labelled with ADHD

even if they didn’t have ADHD, they’d be like, oh yeah, that kid’s got ADHD. Mm-hmm. That’s why he usually a he is acting out. Yeah. And then that someone would make a joke about has he had his Ritalin today. So, did, like, did what A D H D was back then or?

ADHD Subtypes

Ange: Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of jokes about me having a D H D, but I think because of the lack of awareness, I didn’t put two and two together.

And it’s funny because people talk about now, especially that the view of ADHD is that it’s the hyperactive little boy jumping off the walls. And a lot of people, especially women, got missed. But a lot of men too who have the inattentive subtypes, so there’s three different kinds of subtypes of A D H D.

So, you’ve got the hyperactive impulsive subtype, which incidentally is actually the least common one. And then you’ve got the inattentive subtype, and then you’ve got the combined type. Combined type is most common, but oftentimes it’s people with inattentive, A D H D, who are sort of like your absentminded professor, bit scatterbrained, forgetful, spacey, sort of staring out the window instead of paying attention.

They’ll be forgetting things. It’s those people that often get missed because their behaviours aren’t disruptive or their, their symptoms aren’t disruptive. And so, it’s easily overlooked.

Simon: I’ve heard ADD before. is that a thing? Or is that something different?

Ange: No, so essentially that is what it is, but there’s no such thing anymore within the clinical community. There’s no such thing anymore as ADD, it’s A D H D. And oftentimes what you find is that hyperactivity component that’s missing from the ADD that becomes like a cognitive hyperactivity.

So, you’re forever in your own head, generating ideas. There’s constantly just this barrage of thoughts and ideas and anxieties and it never stops. It’s relentless. And so even for those people within inattentive A D H D Oftentimes They are experiencing hyperactivity, but it’s that cognitive hyperactivity instead.

Simon: I can really relate to that as an O C D brain. It’s just constantly going, going, going, and just wish it would just stop. And for a long time, I used alcohol to stop it to slow things down, to kind of have a period of time where I don’t have to think essentially, and it’d be just me on the couch often, at the end of the day I’ve just had a rough day and I’m just like, I need to six pack of beer and I just want to stop talking and stop thinking, yeah. To certainly relate to that. And did you ever try to get help for what was going on? Or did you just kind of just suck it up and, and dealt with it until you got a bit older?

Ange: No, so I, I never had help for it. My mom read all the parenting books, did all of the behavioural sort of interventions remember her, locking me in my room at times and I would just trash the room because.

That I think was the opposition coming out. It was like I had to win. I was not going to allow the adults in my life or the people who were attempting to control me and to control my behaviour to win. And so, I lived my life as a kid. Like I was in a battle and it was me against the adults.

And so it was, yeah, I guess anybody that would attempt to assert their authority over me without having first gained my respect was on the chopping block. Essentially that’s how I sort of saw it. But anyone that would pay me any attention, spend the time connecting with me, I would do anything for them.

 . But also, in high school I kind of checked out.

So, by the time my grades started to suffer, I had kind of checked out, and because of all the bullying, it was like I had so much other stuff going on. I was dealing with, alcoholism and self-harm and bulimia and all of the social stuff. So, I did end up changing schools at the end of year eight.

The bullying got so bad at the Catholic school that I ended up having to change schools. And I went to the local high school where I made it my mission to become popular. And I think it was sort of at that point that. I checked out of school entirely and just focused on that extracurricular and doing all the fun stuff and partying on the weekends and, and all of that.

 I remember as a young kid, like I was never allowed red food colouring, green food, colouring coke, like there was all of that misconception that it was a dietary issue. Or that I just needed some discipline and I got that in droves.

Simon: Well, just hearing about what you went through in the classroom, I’d hate to think what you went through at home as well,

Ange: Oh, yeah. And I mean, I think too, my mom felt that pressure of like, well, if my kid is misbehaving, that’s a reflection on me, therefore I really need to stop those behaviours.

Because she also had that pressure from her relationship and then all the stuff that was going, yeah. Just as a parent, the pressure that you feel, and I think she felt extra pressure to stop me misbehaving, which led to, more and more harsh punishment.

Simon: And I think as a parent with mental illness or mental condition like that, for me, for example maybe sometimes I’m overly harsh on my kids cuz I really just don’t want ’em to be like me. I want them to be different and healthier. I don’t want them to have O C D or depression, anxiety, particularly my son as well. Like, we are very similar, almost too similar. Well my wife says we’re, we’re pretty much exactly the same and I’m like, I don’t want him to be the same as me because I have lived with this for so long and I kind of want him just to have more of a carefree life than the one that I’ve been involved in my head for 30 years and you mentioned your mom’s the pinup child for A D H D, so maybe I’m wondering if some of that was coming through in the discipline as well.

Ange: Oh yeah, look, no doubt she still recounts days where she would wake up and she would think to herself, today, I’m going to please my mother.

Like, I’m, I’m going to get everything right. And you still see this with her today. She’s working so hard to please everybody. And it leads to her having no boundaries and being overstretched in every area of her life and impulsively saying yes to everything. And it’s exhausting being around it.

Yeah. And I feel as though a large part of her life has been spent on that wheel hustling for her worth. And I’m sure that she endured a lot of the sort of corporal punishment as well.

What prompted an ADHD at 35

Simon: Yeah. so, what led you to get the diagnosis at 35? Like what was going through your life then and what prompted you to have that discussion with somebody about A D H D?

Ange: Yeah, so after the birth of my second child, who is almost four, I went back to work and at first, I was writing it off as baby brain, but I was doing all of these funny things, I’d always been forgetful, I’d always been scatterbrained and, I was known for it and it was no big deal.

Cuz I also worked extremely hard. I always stayed back. I always, I was hustling as well. And so, I would still get the work done, it just covered up the fact that I was struggling. But then after the birth of my second child, I felt like until then I’d been able to keep all the balls in the air and all of a sudden, I started dropping balls and it became noticeable.

And so, I’d run upstairs to get some stationary from the stationary cupboard or something forget completely why I was there. I’d be turning circles and run back downstairs, dammit, I forgot the thing. Run back upstairs, repeat. And I was thinking to myself, like I’m losing it.

And I went to the doctor and asked if he thought that I could have early onset dementia or a brain tumour. I don’t know what’s going on, but this isn’t right. And he was basically like, how’s your sleep? How’s your rest? How’s your diet? How’s your exercise? And I was like, yes. All good points.

Actually, yes, I probably could work on those. So, I, I. Got back to hustling and doing more, trying harder, being better. Which has been the pattern of my life. And it still wasn’t working. And then I had started reading a parenting book, Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph. And in it, it referenced a book on A D H D by Gabor Mate. I’ve since discovered that it’s like highly contentious within the A D H D world because, even in the title, so it’s called Scattered Minds and it says the origins and healing of attention deficit disorder.

It doesn’t have the hyperactivity in there either, but just the notion that you can heal it gets a lot of pushbacks because of the current understanding that it is a neurodevelopmental disorder that cannot be reversed but having said that, I, I was listening to that book while I was out walking the dog, and he started to describe my life.

And I’m tearing up as I’m walking along with the dog, just go, oh my God. Like all these years it’s been a joke that I had a d h D, but actually this is it. This describes my experience. Oh my God. I have a d h d and so that was the point where

ADHD Assessment

Ange: I went to the doctor, asked for a referral. At the time, I hadn’t done a lot of reading or research on it, and at, at that point, as I said, like I’m all into my organic food and trying to be as natural as possible.

So, I didn’t want to consider medication at that stage. Since then, I’ve done a lot more research. I am, currently medicated, but I wanted to be assessed by a psychologist as opposed to a psychiatrist because obviously psychiatrists are trained purely to prescribe medication for mental health conditions.

 I had to wait a while, but I ended up going in and having that assessment. It was like three sessions hundreds of questions that I had to demonstrate where the symptoms had showed up in childhood, in an occupational setting and in, my personal life or social settings, that kind of thing.

So, you’ve got to demonstrate, I think it’s in two different domains where it’s showed up and according to the D S M assessment criteria, you have to demonstrate that it showed up before the age of 12

Simon: Why before 12? You can’t get later?

Ange: So, the reason that they want to know that it showed up before the age of 12 is because of this understanding of it as a neurodevelopmental disorder. It doesn’t make sense that it develops later on because it happens as your brain is developing. Therefore, it’s fans to reason that the symptoms should have been showing up in childhood. However, there have been more recent developments that are suggesting that there could be adult onset but the research is still sort of coming.

Simon: So, you got diagnosed and then like what’s some of the therapies or, or processes that you’ve gone through to try and understand it more and, and live with it in a more cohesive way? Or like, what’s the process for someone who is starting their therapy journey with a D H D?

 Is there one like that for starters?

ADHD diagnosis is validating

Ange: So, Ned Hallowell, who’s One of the most renowned voices in this space. He’s a psychiatrist that lives with A D H D himself. And he’s just had the most amazing story life journey. But he wrote the book that I recommend everyone sort of start with when it comes to educating themselves on A D H D, which is driven to distraction.

He does such a good job of highlighting both the challenges and the strengths that are associated with living with A D H D. But one of his lines is always that the diagnosis is half of the treatment because just knowing what you’re dealing with is so validating cuz you all of a sudden have an explanation for why you felt different, for why you struggled in these ways.

When prior to that the question is always what’s wrong with me? And this. Understanding of yourself as being somehow defective, somehow alien? I don’t fit in. And this is where I think a lot of parents in trying to do the best they can by their kids. They don’t want them labelled with a D H D.

But the problem is the labelling’s happening anyway. So, they’re being labelled weird or they’re being labelled like unco or, I mean, I was labelled spinny shit and trippy shit and Sparkly dog shit and

so, the labelling’s happening anyway, and the underlying kind of question is always what’s wrong with me?

And so, the, the label in this case is such a gift because it gives you a new framework for understanding your brain. And so that’s a huge part as is educating yourself. So, the more knowledge you have around A D H D and the way that the A D H D brain works, the more understanding you have around yourself and also how you can approach yourself.

ADHD Treatment

Ange: Self-compassion is massive when it comes to the treatment of A D H D. It’s such a new way of being in the world because typically we’re beating ourselves up day in and day out trying to write what’s wrong with ourselves. But in, in doing that, it’s actually immobilizing us and we don’t even realize it.

So, they’re three huge components Yeah. That are going to make a massive difference even before you. Sit down in a therapy chair anywhere. And then from there what’s recommended in terms of like the gold standard treatment for A D H D is a combination of medication and either C B T that’s adapted for A D H D or coaching.

 The struggle there is just, and, and I think the awareness is building, which means that there’s more psychologists who are learning about A D H D, but typically they’re not learning about A D H D as they come through university. So, unless they have a personal connection with it, they’re also not doing the training required to understand it better.

In order to be able to adapt C B T for A D H D, I’m really hopeful that’s going to change significantly, especially because there’s just so many people being diagnosed currently, like. The situation demands it. And more and more people are having a personal connection to A D H D because more and more we’re all understanding that, oh, we know quite a few people with a D H D.

ADHD Coaching V Therapy

Simon: So, what’s the difference between say, cognitive behavioural therapy and coaching? What’s the difference?

Ange: Yeah. So, I don’t love distinguishing these because I feel like I’ll get pushback from both sides, but in very broad terms. Very broad. And I know that they’re not going to suit everybody, so don’t come for me.

But so, psychology or therapy is, this is just a framework for understanding it. Essentially looking at, okay, what’s happened and how is that impacting on how you are showing up today? Yep. And coaching is about, where are you now? Where do you want to be? And what’s getting in your way and how do we strategize to, to get you from A to B?

Mm-hmm. So, I guess therapy is around sort of resolving and integrating past experiences into the present. And coaching is about moving into the future. Again, very broad. I understand it’s not going to suit us all.

Simon: In my approach, and not necessarily just with ADHD, but in the therapy approach that I have with the guys that I work with, I like to blend the both.

I like to blend. Yeah. Let’s explore what happened, in childhood. And that’s why I often like to start off the podcast with tell us about childhood because yeah, so much happens in the early days of our lives that influence how we’re showing up today as adults as well. And so, so I do that work with guys and then we kind of flip between that and a coaching method and go, okay, where do we want to go?

How can we achieve that? And here’s some cool tools that I love to use. I do a lot of work with identity and values and, and goal setting using those types of modalities. But yeah, I think it’s a good combination. And, good therapists can go between the two as well and, and coaches Exactly. Can go between the two.

You don’t have to just stay in your box and, and just do the traditional C B T or traditional coaching as well.

Ange: That’s the reason too, why there is so much pushback because. There is always going to be crossover there. The lines do get a little bit blurry from time to time. Having said that, I do, know, my scope and I would hope that any of the coaches that you work with would know their scope as well.

In that we don’t want to be digging up all the traumatic experiences of the past, cuz that’s more the realm of therapy. However, having said that, there are going to be moments where we’re looking to the past for, okay, what’s worked, it’s through learning from history that we can move forward.

Simon: Yes, I, I always look back on those things that worked as a resilience, we always say to ourselves, I’m not resilient. Mm-hmm. I don’t have any strengths. But then we look at those moments like, how did you cope with this when you were 10 or 15 or 20, 25, 30?

And they’re like, oh, I did this, this, and this. And they’re like, well, these are your strengths. You’ve got through it before, some of it might not have been really good, like you might have been drinking too much as a coping mechanism, but you at least had a way, a path that you trod to get through to the other side as well.

And you’re still here breathing and, and standing up and living with it and so forth. And, and then I guess the role of a therapist and the coach then is to go, okay, well let’s bring up more of the good stuff and, and leave some of the bad stuff back where it should be in the past. So, absolutely.

What is an ADHD Coach?

Simon: So, talk us through, you’re an A D H D coach. Mm-hmm. And tell us what is an A D H D coach from your perspective and what’s the benefit of coaching and how do you approach your coaching with your clients?

Ange: Yeah, so I love coaching essentially, we’re. Thinking partners. I don’t really love that term.

Yeah. But we collaborate with you to be able to help you forget those ideas around how to get from A to B. We work from a strengths-based approach. A lot of coaching is rooted in positive psychology. But yeah, we are very strengths based in how we choose to approach things because that works for the ADHD brain.

There’s a whole lot of evidence out there around leaning into your strengths as opposed to trying to focus on overcoming and beating areas of weakness or less strength, shall we say.

Simon: I like that. Less strength.

Ange: Yeah. Areas of less strength. And so basically, we’ll help you to clarify who it is that you want to be in the world.

So, a lot of that that you mentioned before around working with your values and we get clarity on strengths. We get clarity on your boundaries, like what are your non-negotiables? And so, a lot of it is about understanding better who you want to be in the world, so then you can be more intentional about how you’re moving forward.

Mm-hmm. And how you want to overcome some of those, those barriers and, and get to where you want to be. So, we, we do a lot of work around creating your goals looking at like your purpose and kind of what your life’s mission is and moving forward and we get very, very practical. So, I think that’s why it works so well for A D H D.

And the difference between, I guess, life coaching and a D H D coaching is that, A D H D coaching is life coaching, but through an A D H D lens. So, with a really good understanding of how the A D H D brain works, we’re not going to be doing things like giving our clients homework because we don’t want to set them up for failure.

We’re not great at doing homework, but we are great in the moment. We’re extremely resourceful, we’re extremely good problem solvers and we’re resilient and so we’re going to focus on creating strategies that are almost infallible. I’m not going to say completely, but they’re almost so easy and they work so well with your brain that it’s hard to fail cuz we don’t want to reinforce this negative view of ourselves that we’ve had and carried throughout childhood to now.

Simon: And do you work with children or just adults? Like how do you work?

Ange: So initially I only wanted to work with adults, but I’ve had so many requests from parents of teens and I do love working with teens.

So, I have opened up my coaching to adolescents. So basically from 13 up. But it does require that the teen in question has like a good ability to sort of reflect and to generate insights about themselves. And so, everyone’s at a different stage in their journeys and. I mean, even with those kids whose capacity to reflect is not quite there yet, they can still benefit from those really practical skills as well.

But it’s largely around working with the families as well to make sure that they’re getting the support that they need on a daily basis.

Simon: and having that ability to self-reflect and have those in internal insights is, is challenging. Like I didn’t really do it until my late. Twenties is when I first got diagnosed, and then probably not until my mid-thirties when I started my social work degree that I actually understood, the importance of self-reflection and insight and could connect two dots together.

So, it quiet, it can be challenging and particularly yeah, for a teenager as well.

Ange: That’s right. and a lot of them will really blow me outta the water. There’s one kid that I work with who.

When I started working with him, you couldn’t get boo out of him and then all of a sudden, he’s having insights left and right. And I have another girl that I work with who her parents are aware that she’s coming, but they don’t support the fact that she has A D H D.

So, she hasn’t been able to access any other help, but she’s convinced that she has a D H D and needs the support but she’s using her Like the money that she’s earning from her part-time job to fund coaching. And I would be, wow. So proud of any of my kids if that’s what they were using their money on.

Cuz I can guarantee I was drinking all of mine.

Simon: You’ve raised a very good point there. And I often reflect on this in the work that I do for Mindful men is like, where are your priorities in life? Particularly a mental health condition, like you, you wouldn’t hesitate to go get your broken arm fixed by a doctor, but if you’ve got a mental health condition or a neurological condition or anything like that, but you’d rather not go to a psychologist cuz you’d rather go and party out on a Saturday night with your mates.

Like where’s the priorities? Because that gives you short-term relief. Drinking used to give me short-term relief, but then the problem was still there the next day. But through therapy I can develop long-term strategies that can help me over my life as opposed to just the here and now.

But it’s amazing that she’s doing that. That’s just incredible.

Ange: that makes me so optimistic for her future because I just think about what might have been possible had I also taken those kinds of opportunities when I was her age. I did a lot of self-reflection. As a teen. I was kind of obsessed with it, but I never had a lot of direction or support and so like, I just am so looking forward to seeing kind of where her life takes her now.

Simon: It’s a point in time thing cuz me growing up in the eighties and nineties, we didn’t talk about mental health. So, to say you’re going to go see a psychologist or a coach, or a counsellor or whatever it is for a mental health condition would’ve been non-existent.

I didn’t think mental health was even in the dictionary really like where I grew up. But even now, like it’s, I think about kids these days. They’ve got access to smartphones, they’ve got access to, internet. They could just Google symptoms and stuff like that and go, oh maybe I do have a D H D.

And then, oh, Ange she’s an h ADHD coach and she happens to live in the same suburb. Like that ability to connect so quickly didn’t exist for, particularly for me growing up in the northern suburbs of Adelaide. Like it was just non-existent. And to your point around like therapy in the country, I would imagine that was very similar, you didn’t know what services were around cuz you were trying to figure it out yourself essentially.

Ange: Yeah. I remember a doctor prescribed antidepressants and I was sent to community mental health. But I remember the therapist, I was 16 at the time and I felt as though I was in control of what was going on and she wasn’t seeing through my bs.

But I knew that I was BSing and I just didn’t get anything out of it. And it also was at the hospital where my dad worked, and I just, I didn’t want the exposure that I, I was worried it would bring if people saw me there was a lot of stigma. But you raised a really good point too, around social media in that

ADHD on TikTok

Ange: so many people have actually come to find that they’ve got A D H D, especially since Covid.

Through watching TikTok. So TikTok algorithm, there’s so many articles out there on this. Yeah. But the TikTok algorithm will start to provide you with content on A D H D based on the way that you consume content on the platform. And so, all these people started getting a D H D content. And through that we’re able to identify like, oh, that sounds like me.

That’s me, that’s me. And then they’d do their research go, oh my God.

Simon: It’s, so, it’s funny you say that. Cause when I set up my Instagram for Mindful men, I started finding an O C D community and I started connecting but then all of a sudden, I’m getting all these barrages of exposure response prevention, therapy practice.

And apparently that’s the gold standard. I’ve never even heard of it before. And, and so I tried it here on the coast and yeah, it was really useful for me to go through that. And it’s, it’s interesting how social media can work to our benefit in this space as well. So many people sharing their stories and similar to podcasting, and you’re on here sharing your story and with the hope that’s maybe a listener out there hears this and goes, yeah, this is what Ange saying is, is like what I went through as a kid and, or an adult

and, or maybe that’s what my son or my daughter’s going through at the moment. I couldn’t quite connect the dots, so let’s go and talk to someone. So, I guess that’s the beauty of social media and technology these days compared to when we were growing up, I think the most advanced thing I had was like MSN Messenger or, or something like that on dial up internet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ange: oh gosh, I still remember it.

Simon: We digress.

Ange: As often happens.

Working with Ange

Simon: Tell us about how, if people want to work with you, how can they get in touch?

Ange: Sure. So, you can find me at angenennie.com.au and is a n g e. It’s Ang with an E, not Ang. And then Nennie is n e n n i e. There are no m’s for Mary in there whatsoever. It’s not the easiest name, but you’re going to get there. So angenennie.com.Au. You can find me at ange nennie on Instagram and same on Facebook.

and otherwise, you can find me on Plaza Parade.

Simon: Yes. And I’ll include the links to everything in the show notes so people can touch base with you as well,

Finding help for ADHD

Simon: Thinking about your story and being, diagnosed when you’re an adult as well, and, maybe someone’s listening to this and, and they’re not quite sure, do I have a D H D or do I not have a d h D?

Like, what’s a tip that you can give them to maybe turn in, in a direction of help? Maybe it’s do they talk to their GP or is it somebody like you? Like how do they find help for this?

Ange: Yeah, so a really good point, I think because there’s still a little bit of a lack of awareness out there, even before you get to the point that you go to the gp.

And look, you can find a step-by-step guide on my website for how to go through this process. Mm-hmm. But initially I would. Look at things like ADDitude mag, so additudemag.com. They have screeners on there. They have all sorts of articles, and you can get a bit of a feel for what A D H D is and is not.

Also different, often coexisting conditions and what they might look like and might not. So educate yourself. And then I would recommend going to the GP and requesting a referral to either a psychiatrist. If you are sure that you are wanting to try medications, then go through a psychiatrist.

 their assessments won’t be quite as thorough as you’ll find with clinical psych or neuropsychologists, but yeah, have your assessment and then you’ll know for certain if you believe that you’re being dismissed at any point in that journey or you’re not being heard or somebody has resistance to the idea that you might have a D H D, then by all means seek a second opinion.

It’s really important that you don’t feel further invalidated through this process because it’s already such a such a tricky Yeah. Way, way to be living.

Simon: And if people want to work with you, do they need to refer or anything like that? Or is it just touch base with you?

Ange: No, not at all.

And I do have a lot of people that work with me who haven’t yet had a diagnosis, but who identify very strongly with all of the symptoms. But there may be barriers to them accessing an assessment and diagnosis. It is an expensive process, unfortunately. Yeah, so there you don’t need a referral.

You can just jump on my website, schedule a discovery call where you can learn more about what it is that I offer and how I might be able to support you.

Simon: Cool. Awesome.

Ange’s Feel-Good Plug

Simon: I always like to finish off with my guests paying it forward, and so I’d love to hear you plug something that makes you feel good. And it doesn’t have to be a D H D related, it can be completely different. But just something that you’re tuning into at the moment, whether it’s a book or a music TV show, self-care activity, something that’s making you feel good.

Ange: Oh, so many things. So, I love. Pottery. When it comes to meditation, that’s about as close as I can get with my monkey mind. So, I love to either sit down at home with Clay or there’s the amazing pottery studio in Nambour and I love to go and do some of their workshops as well.

It’s just a really nice way to, I could sit there and smooth clay all day

Simon: I love it, the creativity does that to us. Like, when I went through burnout and I was making music on my computer just doing loops together, like pretending I was a DJ, but I just found that it, it was a, a creative process that just let the mind just focus on one thing.

And then from that the meditative response came as well. I just felt more relaxed. So, and I’ve always wanted to try pottery, so I think I might try it for myself.

Ange: Oh, it’s so good. Cuz it offers a little bit of resistance as well, so it’s just really nice. Otherwise just sing loud in the car or the shower,

Simon: which I do all those things and the kids hate it.

So, and thanks so much for coming on. I really have loved our chat and we could chat all afternoon, but, I’m mindful that you’ve got lunch to have but thanks for coming on and getting vulnerable about A D H D. I really have enjoyed the chat and hopefully someone out there has got some value from it too.

Ange: Yeah, I really hope so. And thank you so much for having me on.