Simon: G’day guys, and welcome to another episode of The Mindful Men Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about addiction and social work.

Simon: Now, trigger warning, because we are talking about addiction today, if you do get triggered by this particular topic, feel free to skip this episode.

That’s more than okay. But if you do stick around and you do get triggered, please reach out to your support networks afterwards. And joining me for today’s discussion, I’ve got Joey Pagano from Pennsylvania, USA. How you going, Joey?

Joey: Hey, pretty good. I’m, just looking forward to the show and, just a great day here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in the US.

Simon: Now, Joey, you’re a husband and you’re a dad of two

 a licensed social worker, a research author and a motivational speaker. So quite a CV you’ve got there. a combination of I’m assuming, lived and learned experience as well. But I’d like to start off each episode, with my guests, just sharing a bit about where they’re from and where they are now. Just some of those key points that kind of led you towards, what you’re doing today.

Joey’s background

Joey: Okay, well, I grew up, a little town called Charleroi. It’s actually like a Belgium town, in southwestern Pennsylvania of the US, town about 3000 people. And it used to be called the Magic City. Now it was called the Magic City because the economy used to boom.

And that was before, you had Walmartization and you had all those things that kind of forced the, small businesses out. And that was a time, my mother would tell me that there wasn’t any addicts that she knew. Addiction wasn’t as prevalent as it is today.

 it was like the, the neighbourhood addict, one person that got into trouble to use the drugs. Now we’re no longer have the Magic City like addiction has run rampant here and has taken over the, we’re in a place called the Mon Valley, and it’s called that because there’s a river that runs, along, this valley called the Monongahela.

So, it’s like a tight-knit community. No longer the, the Magic City addictions everywhere. Treatment has grown and is now flourishing as, the opioid epidemic, the pandemic, and all those crises in, our world and ever since I remember I was an addict, ever since, I was young and I struggled with the disease of addiction and the, seeds of addiction, like, were cultivated, very early, with various trauma, with various mental abuse, with bullying, with all that stuff where the disease of addiction became that drill sergeant.

 I had to get up and show up for duty every day, And, and, and I was a good soldier in the army of addiction. And, I served visionally, and, I ever since, I could remember, and, I’ve struggled in addiction for, for 22 years. I’m 47 now, And, it was horrible. It’s something I carried around with me for decades. It’s something that I lived in.

 it was, the days of not bathing, of eating and it, was a luxury, was living by default was, just only dreaming of having a relationship, a marriage, anything like that was, was just such a far reach. And, I struggled and, I’m a social worker today and I had all these things happen to me, and then for me, I realized they happened for me while in the midst of this 22 years of addiction. But that journey, help me become the social worker that I am today. I would’ve never chosen that. This is a field, this wouldn’t have come up in any kind of classroom discussion, telling my teachers, what do you want to be when you grow up?

I want to be a firefighter. I would’ve never said a social worker, nor did I know what that is. But I believe in my heart today that this is a profession that chose me. And this is not something that I would’ve chose. and I’ll share about this later, but a chapter in my book that I have just written, my third book is Quit Choosing and Get Chosen.

And that’s exactly what happened to me., I wouldn’t trade any of those dark moments, that I’m always so transparent with because I’ve learned my struggles don’t define me. They refine me into who I am today. So, I wouldn’t trade not one of those moments, for the life I live today,

cause I’m grateful for all that my pain has refined me into the social worker I am today, Simon.

Simon: I love that, your pain doesn’t define it refines, so often in, in this space, whether it’s addiction, mental health, disability as well. I always hear like, oh, this part of me doesn’t define me. And for a while I’ve been kind of, I’m on the opposite side of the fence from, I’m saying, well, it’s kind of does define me because it, it makes me the person I am today and it gives me the fuel for my passion, which is men’s mental health and disability. But I actually love how you phrased that of refining you. It’s still a big part of you, and you had to go through what you went through to be the person you are today, and to be the person you’re going to be in 5, 10, 30 years’ time.

I really love that. So, I’m going to pick that as a social worker myself. I’m going to put that in my back pocket That’s a really good one. You mentioned it started really early, your addiction struggles, how early were you talking about? Can you paint us a picture of that context around you?

When the addiction started

Joey: Yes, and I think it’ll help the listeners conceptualize that even better. I, I come from a dark place where I lived in a dark corner, where, mental health, we’re talking like 7, 8, 9 years old as a kid, and constant fighting in the house and, all those forms of mental abuse and, a very authoritarian parenting style.

 that’s what I was raised in and just feeling of not good enough. I was diagnosed very young with, with A D H D. I was medicated, very young. I’m 47 now, so that was when Ritalin came out, so it was around there. I was put on that for a long time, and they were like, listen, what’s wrong with Joey?

Like, what’s wrong with this kid? Like, he’s smart, but he just can’t stop talking and getting in trouble. And, it’s just like addiction. Like I never knew that I had a disease. I never knew what an addict is or what even recovery was. So, it’s the same thing as, you tell me, I have ADHD, I don’t even know what that even is. you tell me I have anxiety; I get diagnosed with all that. I couldn’t figure out how to get through these struggles. I’m getting in trouble. I’m getting yelled at, by my authoritarian parents, and the feelings of not being good enough. I got bullied, Because I was just like different and maybe I didn’t fit into all these different cliques at school.

And as time, went by, I’m just trying to get medicated to stabilize and at the same time trying to fit in with all these kids and this progression, and then drugs really. Drugs was an escape that, and that’s why I say like, I am grateful because like I come from a place where, I wanted to kill myself so many times cause, because I wasn’t good enough and, and it was just a bullying would go day after day after day.

And I come from a place where, I just wanted to be someone else. So, like, the drugs masked that and helped me not feel that stuff. And then I was able to just blend in with these, cliques, in middle school and in high school. I was using drugs to be socially acceptable at the time before the legalization of marijuana.

Now we’re talking, smoking that, and then alcohol,

so, if I could be you for a day. I was willing to risk whatever the, consequence and then the trauma would just continue. It was just one situation after another. I would keep getting in trouble I barely graduated.

I don’t even know how I got by and, and my parents just, you’re not good enough. I always felt that just not good enough. I still struggle with that. That’s like, like we get that super ego and that stuff from our parents and, some stuff we can’t get out of us. Listen, I’m completely different than my mother, my mother is like a bible bell conservative, authoritarian. She has her own belief system and that’s fine. I love her the way she is.

I’m complete opposite. I parent my daughter like authoritative and there’s nothing wrong with either of those, no matter who we are, we still have stuff like I did of my parents that comes out in us,

So that trauma, I wish I could just take it out some days and just not remember it, but at the same time, it has helped me grown. And, and that trauma just comes out, like parenting my daughter, I want to let her have her autonomy, but sometimes I’ll just control the situation and have to take a step back.

And I’m like, where did that come from? And it’s like, my mom’s in me.

so, that was a lot of the trauma that I grew up with. And that, it’s not bad or good. It just is what it is. The trauma that we endure in life, like shapes us, as we grow.

. So that’s, that’s kind of like, some of that stuff happens, Simon, but I wouldn’t trade any of it. Even in the dark times because, I’m able to grow through that and I’m able to be who I’m supposed to be,

so, it just, I think it just helps me as a social worker and as a human being.

Simon: Yeah. Absolutely. I’m interested in your thoughts around masculinity and growing up in your environment. I often reflect on my own mental health journey, which started with a diagnosis of O C D or obsessive-compulsive disorder when I was 28, but it actually started when I was eight years old.

And so, for that 20 years, mental health discussions weren’t really a thing where I grew up. And so, I didn’t have the words, the vocabulary or even the courage to talk about what was going on inside. And I look at this concept around masculinity, and I grew up in a, working class area with a lot of lower socioeconomic working-class families during the eighties and nineties and into the noughties as well. And it was all very much, boys don’t cry, boys don’t show emotion, boys need to suck it up, be tough, carry on. Was it, similar to you growing up or did you have someone that you could talk to about what was going on and help you process?

Joey: I think Simon, it was very similar. I grew up in that same era. but as my parents would throw me in a lot of different, just modalities of therapy, I was on the Ritalin and I don’t even want to say something was wrong with me, it was just something different with me and how I functioned.

That was decades. and I came from that about like, you can’t cry. You’re a guy, you can’t cry. But like, growing up there wasn’t many people to talk to.

When I was in the military, being an addict was just the same as what you’re talking about, Like, I can’t share about it.

Like, I don’t even know I’m an addict. I don’t even know what’s going on. I don’t even know what addiction is because it was never talked about in my family, so that already causes like, issues and then I find myself in the military.

I’m using drugs. What do your think’s going to happen? they don’t want to keep me in there. part of me says, well, maybe I could be a soldier. Maybe I could make my parents proud. No, they said no. After two years, like, you’re leaving, like with another than honourable discharge, which is like a scarlet letter on this guy.

 It was, it was just like, you’re leaving here, you’re not offered a treatment. You have to leave, and, then what they do to me is, they took me to the boundaries of the base, which is like an interstate across the United States, 2000 miles away in Washington, and drop me off at the interstate and I had to walk to an airport 20 miles away, hitchhike then walk.

And it was that, I don’t even know I’m an addict I’m having to go home as a 20-year-old at the time. My addiction is progressing. I couldn’t talk to anybody because I don’t even know what to talk about. I have all this trauma. I have A D H D; I have anxiety and I don’t even know what’s going on. And they just throw me, back in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And, I did, what, what an addict do I use?

Simon: Yeah. How did addiction continue in the military?

Being in the Military with addiction

Joey: Before the military, I was smoking marijuana. We’re talking decades before legalization.

so, I took my test. I was clean on the test. I didn’t smoke weed at that time. so, I was able to just put it down then, I go through basic training, go through a I t, which is like your job, vocational training, and then I get there.

I’m not using drugs, I’m drinking because drinking like, it was like high school back again to be cool, and to fit in with the clique, the most socially acceptable thing in the military is alcohol. We want to be a guy, let off steam. and then I would party and then, but is where other people could stop.

 I was incapable of stopping Simon, like me, my background of being an addict. The seeds of addiction were planted long ago, and all this military did was cultivate them with the attitudes and,

so, it, my addiction went full speed. And, I mean, the military didn’t like push me into drugs, but now, I don’t have parents around me, were able to get off the base. You go to like places and, and festivals and just all kinds of stuff, and, I didn’t really look at, any kind of consequences.

It was just like, it’s a party and, I didn’t stop, so they weren’t having any of that.

Simon: Yeah. Wow. And, so what happened next? you’ve been discharged from the military, where did your life lead you then? did you keep using, or at what point did you start to, ask for help and get help as well?

Life with a heroin addiction

Joey: No, I kept using, now we’re talking 1996 to 2013 we’re talking a long time in active heroin addiction, it just progressed and then I found my love, My drug of choice. I found the drug that just let me not face any feelings. I didn’t look at any consequence cause now I’m, I’m physically addicted to a substance and, then I found myself using by myself at the bitter ends.

And I remember the disease of addiction would just wake me up and like, listen. You’re waking up today, we’re not worrying about food today. You’re waking up and you’re showing up for duty for me. Put on your uniform and you’re marching. And I would be, yes, sir. And I would just go to work for the disease of addiction and I would get up and it would just, get worse and get worse.

 I got married twice in the midst of those decades. I found my inside and outside of, of different criminal activity. All this stuff that comes along with addiction and, and just my mental health was just pushed aside that’s not important in addiction.

 There’s no time for medication. There’s no time for treatment. and I didn’t even know anything about recovery. Nothing about recovery until. 2009 and, and like, just imagine that. So, we’re talking, over a decade just, in heroin addiction and just not even knowing that you are an addict or there’s such a thing as treatment.

And, as the relationships were few and far between at that time, my parents didn’t want anything to do with me, and my mom, she still loved me with this unconditional love, which I couldn’t figure out myself.

cause I burned every bridge. Every bridge. I just blew ’em up, they didn’t want nothing to do with me. And, and that just went on and on and I’d moved to different areas and maybe if I go here, I’ll stay clean and maybe if I date the right girl, I’ll stay clean and nothing had any rhyme or reason.

And, I didn’t know anything and this went on for so long. I, I hated myself and I wanted to die. I remember going to sleep sometimes at night just like, God, please just let me die. I don’t want to wake up today. I don’t want to do this anymore. I can’t do this anymore.

 At that time, I’m like, a hundred pounds soaking wet, Lethargic, all that different stuff that comes with addiction, where like, I’m slowly committing suicide, that’s exactly what I’m doing. Didn’t shower for like a month, like just animalistic level stuff where nothing came before addiction and nobody wanted me.

And, and I didn’t even want me. Those were dark times, Simon.

Simon: How did you survive? did you have a job? where were you sleeping? how did you manage that from a day to day?

Joey: a lot of times, I would stay at an abandoned house. I would be homeless.

I would, I mentioned the word hostage. Those were like a girlfriend, I’d find some girlfriend until they wanted to get rid of me, and twice, I found like a wife, and I didn’t last long with that. They don’t want someone who’s using drugs.

 and I would hide it. I was a manipulator. I just, not happy with myself, hated myself. and it was just horrible. I’ll never forget that. And, I merely survive financially. I’ll tell you what, like it’s amazing how addicts survive financially. they either just turn to some criminal activity and, mostly it’s just stealing. And I just did whatever, to survive. And, and I didn’t have to pay much money eating. I literally ate, these Nesquik banana milks and like Reese’s peanut butter cups, and I would like survive on that for like a month.

And that’s all I’d eat sometimes. And it was just, just merely surviving from this near fatal catastrophe, which was addiction. and I remember this cycle, I’d make it back to my parents. I’d be like, listen, mom, want to try to stay clean and, I’d bs them and, and tell ’em whatever they needed to hear.

And it’s like, and they’d say, okay, you could stay here. And I, I’m going to treatment and I go to treatment and I come back for some crazy reason, I would’ve left, I had to come back home and I didn’t have to come back home. I came back home to get high. And, this cycle was just never ending.

 I think I felt I was just waiting to die it’s a sad place and, and a lot of people don’t make it out of there. A lot of people just give up. A lot of my friends today just aren’t there. I miss my friends and, a lot of people, just, I used for a long, long time.

I have clients, I have friends that used once and have passed away. I used for almost 22 years, and I’m still here. And, I know it’s because I have a purpose, but like, those days were, those days were bad. And, so many times I made it through them. I don’t know how I made it through them.

Let me tell you this, the cycle kept, repeating itself. And I just, I couldn’t make it out. And, I was just finally ready. I was like, I, I just got to just kill myself or something.

 I can’t take it no more. I was at wit’s end and I woke up this morning. And the disease woke me up. As it always does. Just get up. I put my clothes on and, and I knew that I had to get high cause I didn’t want to be sick today. I didn’t want to be Dope sick. Opiate withdrawal in the clinical world.

 I hated that feeling. So, I got up and I, I’m from a town with only 3000 people. Everybody knows your name; everybody knows my face. They know I’m an addict. So, I always, put up my hood, that’s that picture on my new book with a hood on cause it’s such, it’s, it’s an iconic picture of me because I know like that was, that addict, that was just me. And I put that hood on, And I’ve walked down that street and, and I get, to the gas station, I was like, listen, like I, I got to get money somehow.

And I, and I went in there and the disease is yelling at me, and I didn’t want to go in there. He’s like, you go in there, you get that money and you get whatever you need to get and you get out now. And I was just like, yes, sir. And I was shaking, I was sweating. I, was so dope sick. I haven’t eaten in like a week.

Jail time saved my life

Joey: And I went in and I robbed the store. I took money and, and I ended up getting high. And I, I was like, listen, I’m just getting high. I’m just going to kill myself. This is, this is it. I got to end it. I have no reason to, to be on the face of this planet anymore. And I walked down the street and, I kept walking and, I sat down on the sidewalk and it was across the street from the police station, And, I’m sitting there I had a phone, And I, called my mom, I said, listen, mom, I, I can’t do this anymore. I got to end my life now.

 I’m tired. Tell dad, I’m leaving and tell my son, he was like nine or something then. just tell him I love him. And, and I haven’t seen him for years I abandoned him. And, and then my mom’s screaming, what are you talking about, mom? I’m never coming back. I’m never, I’m, I’m sorry I’ve failed you as a kid. And she’s screaming. She’s screaming. And, and I just couldn’t take it. I just slammed the phone down and I just like put my head down and I just said, please help me.

And I don’t know what to do. it’s like I had like thoughts going on the left side of my brain trying to sell me an idea and the right side of my brain trying to buy it, and that’s what was happening. And. I was ready. I said, maybe I just need to kill myself.

And instead, I, I got up, it was like something carried me across the street, but I, I got up and I went across the street and I walked into the side door of the, of the police station and I says, hi, I’m Joey Pagano they knew who I was. And, I looked, it was the police chief and the detective, I think.

And I said, please, please just arrest me. I’m going to kill myself. I can’t stop using. And, I remember the chief, chief Eric, he just, he got me and, and he put handcuffs and, it was kind of like, He put his arm around me and he got me into the cell.

And, and I could just breathe. I knew, I knew it was going to be okay. And, and at that time, like I quit getting busy dying. And I started getting busy living. And I’ve been clean ever since, Simon.

Simon: Wow. I often hear about these light bulb moments. These moments where something like this happens where we’re at, our wits ends and then just something pops into our brain, or our body just moves in a way that we didn’t expect was probably the opposite of what we’re attempting to do.

What was it liking the next day? were you still in the cell the next day? you said you started living, what did that look like for you?

Supporting addicts on the streets

Joey: I spent a couple years in prison, and I got out and, I did drug programs when I was in there and, I stayed positive and I got out and, and listen, it was like that Blues brothers moment, like, we’re on a mission from God, and I’m telling you what, that’s what happened.

And I really like getting busy living. Listen, this is how it went. Like, I got out, I’m running around the town I just want to save people. I became the president of this nonprofit recovery group called Club Serenity Incorporated. And, and we weren’t a 5 0 1 (c)(3) at that time.

So, we were just, some people trying to help like addicts and I was like, we need to be, a nonprofit entity, And I said, well, does anybody have legal skills? No. And I said, listen, I’m just going to go watch YouTube. And I watched YouTube and I taught myself how to be a paralegal,

And I, filed for nonprofit status. I got us as a nonprofit from YouTube, all this stuff happened. I got my car, I’m working like under the table, different jobs. I had this Dodge Dart, red Dodge Dart, and, and when you think of an addict, I always think of like a, which is the emblem of club Serenity was the phoenix.

And we rise from the ashes. And so, I got, This big decal, huge, phoenix over my car. And then I got these hands on the hood and I made it like the recovery mobile. And I drove around the communities saving people. Like, people thought I was nuts, we were like recovery cowboys, my friends and I part of the club, serenity.

I’m telling you what, man, if you were getting high and doing the wrong thing, you did not want to see me in the early days of Club Serenity. And, we’re just having fun helping people. And, one of my best friends, Lee Robertson, he always has this saying, he says, don’t get nervous, get in service.

And I, said, Lee, I, I don’t know what we should do next. He’s like, listen man, we need housing. We need housing in this area. And it’s a truly a big disparity in our community. And I said, yes. I said, what should we do? He says, listen man, maybe you need to talk to the city council, and I said they need something and Joey P you might be the something they need.

And so, I went to the city council, I’m speaking, and that was when like the social work came out and the advocate, I’m speaking to the council, like, we ain’t leaving here till we get some help. And I go there month after month and I’m teaching myself how to write grants and bylaws from YouTube and we’re making changes.

and, I just kept serving and I’m busy living my life just like all these doors, would just keep opening as a result, in that midst of the club serenity, I started school, get my associates and, and that was going on at the time.

And, and I end up getting my associates of social work, human services and social work and, and at the same time, everybody’s dying from the opioid epidemic in the us and so what happened is the governor of Pennsylvania, created these things called centres of Excellence.

And there’s these facilities to focus on opiate use disorder clients, and they try to help because they put persons in with life, experience of recovery in the case management, bachelor’s level positions so they could bridge the gaps and do what drug therapy just can’t do, you miss an appointment

well, you get a phone call, well listen, we’re showing up at your house. and we’re kind of like doing this at club Serenity, before there was ever a centre of excellence. So, I get this phone call, And, these two ladies, one’s an executive, one, at the time was like a supervisor, and they said, listen, we want to meet with you at Club Serenity. I said, okay. So, they come in, meet with me, and they spend like an hour and a half trying to convince me to work for them.

They were like, listen, we know what you’re doing is amazing and you’re not getting paid. We want to pay you money to do what you’re doing. I fought them. I said, I don’t want paid you, you could just hang it up. I’m going to do this. I’m a recovery cowboy, and that’s that. And, I fought them and they thought I was crazy.

And, hey, I probably was, but at the same time I remember they left. And, I look up on the wall. And, and it was a sign that I put up a club Serenity it, said, expect a miracle. And, I said, huh? I said, maybe this was a miracle, maybe I am. And I, I chose to work there. And this was the same agency that I went to, intensive Outpatient that I, pretty much learned I was an addict the first time.

 I was a client there, so that was crazy as it is. So, I found myself in 2017 working as a certified recovery specialist, I continue my schooling, everything was happening. I’m staying there, I’m, I’m saving lives. I’m one of the top navigators, we call ’em navigators, like a case worker name in the entire state of Pennsylvania. just all these awards. And, I was a third licensed bachelor of social worker in the state of PA cause our state just got the ability to get that. And my license was like number three. And, and then I got my masters of social work, Then I got my licensed master’s level social work. Then I became project supervisor of one of the big whole c o e campuses in a rural town. Like all this was happening,

And, I wrote like two books in the midst of all that. So, all kind of stuff was happening, And, I got married, I married, my wife Jody, and, and she’s in recovery and she’s now, in school and everything. And, and I started my doctorate, I’m like 60% done.

 I’ll have that done 18 months in and out. I have my DS W so next March I’ll be Dr. Pagano; you know what I mean? It’s crazy.

Simon: It is crazy. And, what you’re highlighting here, there’s two sides to each coin, And I was interested, because you said you grew up in a very small town, a couple thousand people, and you are active addict. Everyone knew your name so there’s already a shame and stigma placed on your name based on your, upbringing, your addiction, your military career, And, even though you’d probably feel it internally yourself, but other people would say, oh, that’s Joey there.

That’s Joey, we know who Joey is. But then you said once you started your recovery process, started living life and you were saying doors were opening for you. Yes. Like that’s the opposite side. It, it shows that we can still break free from whatever the issue is, whether it’s addiction, mental illness, disability, whatever it is,

and we can actually thrive as you’re saying, you are refining your identity and thriving and then you’ve gone through study. Now studying social work is a hard thing to do. I’ve done the masters of social work here and, and I was trying to juggle my work career, my young family, we had covid during that.

It, it’s not an easy thing to do. So, you’re highlighting that positive things can happen when we just flip the discourse internally first. Yes. Then people can start seeing our true potential. And that’s what I love about social worker. We actually see the true potential in people. they might come to us in, in their darkest days, but we actually see the light bulbs inside of them.

so, I’m interested why social work? why did social work come across your mind? what some of the, frameworks that you like to work from, from a social work perspective?

Social work and addiction

Joey: Just like the time when I was at Club Serenity and I was trying to figure out like how to help these people, there’s no centres of excellence, there’s no anything professional. There’s just us as like recovery cowboys. But even without even having or knowing anything about a framework, I was seeing that well, okay, so these people there aren’t able to stay clean cause they don’t have housing to go to,

so, I’m like trying to work on a huge disparity, which was housing, and also transportation, but mostly housing. And when I think of that, I just look at me, my systems theory framework that I use everything in because it all makes sense. And, I work now in like a very rural area where transportation is like, there, there isn’t any, and then housing’s even worse than the county I live in from where I work.

 and it all makes sense. It’s all connected. it just, everything I do is just like I did it without knowing it and having a framework is everything I do. I published manuscript on the efficacy of telehealth and, I believe in that in some capacity, it just, it, it’s not a cookie cutter process, but it works in some cases, it works with us in the Centre of Excellence because it’s not therapy, When I do my therapy, whether it’s mental health or drug and alcohol, it’s completely different. But at A C O E, we deal with, 90% of people in pre-contemplation,

In denial. So, they’re in pre-contemplation. They don’t even want to talk to someone yet alone, be clean off of illicit substances at this time. But they’ll at least maybe make a five-minute, 10-minute phone call with me. And, that client by me calling them, hey, listen, I, I’m not trying that I believe in self-determination. I believe in that stuff. It’s not like, not me. Like, no, you have to be clean now and you have to do this.

That don’t work. It didn’t work with me with the dogma I endured through decades of my growing up. And it didn’t work for me in the military and it didn’t work for me ever. Until I got clean, when I wanted to get clean. So, I try to instil those trauma-informed care, with empathy, collaboration, and I meet people where they’re at, not where I’m at. And I say, listen, I know you’re using and that’s cool, and it’s dangerous. Like, but I’m going to drop Narcan off in your mailbox. Okay? Okay. And like, when you’re ready to get clean, you get clean, because if they’re not ready to be clean, I can’t say the right thing to ’em.

But if they’re ready to be clean, I can’t say the wrong thing. So that’s how it works. It works through the same thing I just said, self-determination, it just meeting someone where they’re at and just like not, that’s what I need to do as not only a practitioner, as a husband,

 My wife’s getting her BSW now and she’s going to do the same path, and it works the same thing with my daughter, I try to instil that self-determination and not instil that rigid unbending doctrine of my past,

It sometimes comes out cause I’m human, but I got to remember myself. That is important for me to instil self-determination of my client is to employ the principle of self-determination to my daughter, Gianna. Cause she respects me more and she understands it. Listen, tell me this isn’t crazy.

 I was sharing on a podcast about when my daughter gets in trouble, I really want to be able to be very authoritative with her, me and my wife, just try to like, have her respect us and trust us enough to tell us when she’s in trouble and stuff’s happening, rather than like, what I did,

And we try to instil that. So, imagine that like after the podcast, she comes back from her friend’s house and then, she gets in trouble but she comes in and just tells us like, I did this and I just want to tell you. cause I trust you guys.

That’s the miracle of living out social work, principles, trauma, all that stuff. it’s all systems theory too. I could go on and on, like, everything’s affected.

Like she’s affected everything’s, how I act and how I carry myself. it’s how, she’s going to expect and she’s going to see and she’s going to, like to tell us what she needs to tell us. And that happened just like that she told us, because she respects us and she knew I wasn’t going to come out and yell at her.

like that’s the miracle. here’s systems theory in action in a marriage, I go to school. My wife sees me go to school; she starts going to school. Listen, we have back-to-back graduations. I got my MSW, she got her associates of social work Friday and Saturday, and it’s going to be similar with her, B S W and my DSW.

It’s going to be the same thing. those miracles will work, the same way as if I was with a client. Like, why can’t they stay clean? Well, they’re going back to the same house.

It’s toxic. Well, they don’t have transportation and we just send them back. They can’t get to their appointments. Well, what do you think is going to happen? so I try to just use the gift that I got. And like social work chose me.

I would’ve never chosen none of this. I would’ve killed myself when I sat across the street, from the police station. But I just keep showing up and these doors of opportunity open, I got hanging on my wall a pardon from the governor of Pennsylvania,

Because I was worried about my charges, That I wouldn’t get hired places. So, what do I need to do? I need to walk through another obstacle. I need to apply for a governor’s pardon? And guess what? Took two and a half years, but I got it. Did I really need it. I might not have needed it. But now that I could improve, maybe, my life and I could also like help and give hope to my clients as they could see that’s even possible, I’m in the process of the same thing I’m doing with my Army discharge. I don’t need that, but like, this stuff just, it pays dividends because it helps all these other areas, it’s like everything affects everything, and that’s what I love and that’s what I try to work the framework I work my life with because it works and applies with everything.

Simon: Absolutely. And you’re, touching on like a lot of theoretical frameworks that we use in social work, but also, psychologists, counsellors use ‘them as well, but what’s really shining through is your lived experience and how important that is in service of other people, whether it’s a client, whether it’s a service provider, whether it’s your family, your wife, and your kids as well.

So, I’m interested in your thoughts on how important is it for practitioners, therapists to have some sort of lived experience in the work that they do?

Helping through lived experience

Joey: Oh wow. it’s so important. it just bridges gaps. I would imagine it’s the same reason why, my chief operating officer, when they created there, modality of c o e, Because I, know the governor let people, choose how they were going to have it function in certain ways. They chose to have CRSs in person with lived experience as like the primary role because like Cheryl, she’s an L C S W C O O, she knew that would bridge gaps.

 not that a person, like we have people that work there to get the job that I start off as a, someone with a bachelor’s degree or someone with the ability to obtain a C R S, which is lived experience so, they both like, we’re a multidisciplinary team. It’s not that the person with the, the degree, serves a less purpose.

They just serve a different purpose. And they’re able to help in just different ways, but that c r s is able to, to bridge gaps with, especially with clients that are in pre-contemplation. And they don’t want to talk to someone in a suit. Listen, when I go out to houses and I call ’em mobile outreaches when I do that, like, we just wear regular clothes and, and I don’t want to wear a suit because I’m not going to reach those people.

Those in the, those vulnerable populations, they’re living out in this very rural area. and, disclosure comes up a lot and it’s very beneficial. So, to answer your question, it is imperative and it’s able Simon to bridge gaps. Like, nothing else can. you don’t have to have that, but it’s able to reach a percentage of people that would not be able to be reached by someone without that. cause it just, works and it’s vital.

Simon: Yeah, absolutely. So, you’ve written, your third book and I got you on the show to talk a bit about your book.

 what made you put pen to paper. not once, not twice, but three times. where does this drive come to write this type of stuff

No Addict Left Behind

Joey: I want to help people and I want to continue to help people in different platforms. the first two times were just, it’s crazy.

Like, I mean, even how those happened, was just like writing on Facebook and social media, and that just developed into, writing blogs and that continued and I like writing. that evolved, this third time, this is how my brain works. I don’t stop. So, at the same time, this is about last year, beginning of summer. I’m, doing like three classes, like triple full-time at doctorate. I’m running the project supervisor at, Southwestern Pennsylvania Human Services.

That’s my job. I’m a mental health and drug and alcohol therapist, I got my recovery, I got my wife, I got my daughter. All this stuff going on. I just got a, hired as an adjunct professor at the college. It was just crazy. So, I’m doing all this and none of that is enough.

So, my colleague and one of my good friends is the chief medical director at our facility and, and a lot of facilities, he’s called the traveling doctor, Dr. Scott A Cook, and I look up to him a lot. So, he doesn’t have life experience. He’s just a physician with a big heart and then shares the same beliefs as I do and we work a lot with our medicated assisted program, in so many different, ways. I was in the shower, I was just trying to like, meditate, kind of just focus. And I opened my eyes and I had this idea.

I said, I need to write a book. And I, need to write a book to be able to help people. That thought before that thought was like, just maybe something with like, how everybody gives up on people and, and like, it just formed into like that idea of, it, the theme has to be not given up on anybody.

 I went to Messenger. I dictated this to Scott, Dr. Cook, and I said, listen, we got to write a book. water’s still running. I didn’t want to lose this. I said, we got to write a book. I. then and there, I got the name Listen, this is like in the first message. It’s got to be No Addict Left Behind.

 And it just flowed. And, I left that and we were like dictating back and forth at night and I was like, all I’m starting on the book. He’s like, do it. That is the best idea I heard. And listen, once again, it was another Blues brothers moment. I was on a mission from God, listen, I wrote that book and I don’t even know maybe less than a month. I’m telling you what I was, I was, it was crazy. I almost got divorced. I’m doing everything else. And my wife like, what are you doing for 11 hours? Babe, I’m on a mission from God. And she’s like, get out of here. she just yelling at me, better have some time for me. And, and I just kept going and I kept writing and, and the next thing I know and like, week after week and I’m just, I, I wrote a book and, and we kept editing back and forth.

And then he became a co-author, I wanted to do something different with this book. I didn’t want it to be any Form of autobiography, but I wanted some the vulnerable populations, maybe someone in addiction, also, and then the collateral damage of addiction of the like the parents and the children, that get missed a lot.

I wanted them to be included in this. And I was like, what could we do, to like, make, parents, see. something as tangible as I can and then the same thing with kids, that they could like break free of the stigma, maybe their kid and maybe their parent uses. and I knew exactly how to do it.

And another idea came, I’m going to interview my mom, so my mom’s in there. Like I abandoned my son pretty much like very emotional stuff that, that people aren’t going to believe I put in there and Dr. Cook’s like, how many experiences do you have with stigma. I was like, how many experiences? And, and I was like, boom. And then we took it on ahead first, I was just getting stigmatized by physicians and, in the military.

So, we, threw all that in and then we, both believe that addiction is individualized and there’s no cookie cutter process for everybody. My, path might be a 12-step path, but I still meet people where they’re at and I believe in social work principles like self-determination and autonomy and things like that.

So, we wrote chapters like, solutions from a Recovery Medicine World, and I wrote like Family Solutions and I gave like an experience of how I was enabled and, commentary from my mother and father and all kind of stuff in there of maybe things to look for.

Then I put social work solutions, I added like data and research that I’ve done on telehealth and I just interwove with all these other, experiences. And then Dr. Cook touched on the medical solutions and he gave some data and his perspective and, we threw a lot in there and, we published it with Scribe Media, to get the best book we could and, it out on April 25th.

Simon: Wow. That’s so exciting. it sounds like such a unique and diverse book as well. it’s not just an autobiography, there’s obviously parts of you in there, but it’s the stories around the collateral damage, the relationships around you as well.

And I’m interested about your children, for example. How did addiction influence or impact your children and your wife as well, but then also, what does it mean to you to be a dad?

The impact of addiction on family

Joey: Listen, all I ever wanted to be was dad. that’s a whole other reason of writing the book.

I haven’t seen my son in 10 years. Okay. I’m, I’m just about to have 10 years clean. June 1st. I’ll have 10 years clean. And, I threw an experience in there of how I abandoned my son. And, my son just started texted me within the last month and like I says, I’m trying to like, form that relationship and, I tell you what, I’m going to send my son a book. I’m going to send him one, and I’m going to say, this is who your dad is. going to show him, just like addiction took me and like this is who I was. And he could see some of those parts of me.

 that was another reason because I wanted to give him something tangible that he could read. He’s, he’s 18, so he’s an adult now. And, addiction leaves scars, and those scars hurt really bad. And, I’m trying to build that relationship with him.

And you talk about I being a dad, I always wanted to be a dad, but I never had the confidence to be a dad cause addiction took everything.

 I have a stepdaughter, but I call her my daughter from my marriage now.

she taught me how to be a dad and we have a great relationship.

She’s 14 Gianna, and my wife, which have a great relationship and, that’s how it is. And I, I always wanted to be a dad, but like, addiction doesn’t have any time for that. And, and that book tells it, the book gives you both sides of that situation.

And, hopefully people could identify and maybe it could heal some families through, some experiences.

Simon: Yeah. Where can people access the book?

Joey: people can access the book on amazon.com. You could also find information, on my website. It’s going to link you to Amazon and that website address is No Addict Left Behind. Life. I’m on all the social media, like all of them. So, you can find Joey Pagano, no addict Left Behind.

I’m on everything.

Simon: Perfect. And we’ll put the links in the show notes so people can readily access that as well. Joey, even though it’s quite a tough topic to discuss, and I talk about this often with the blokes that I do therapy with, you bring so much energy towards it, and I’m really thankful for you coming on the show today and, being vulnerable and, sharing your story so that, hopefully there might be somebody out there listening who’s struggling with addiction, who might, see you as a beacon of light.

And, I’m really thankful for you coming on and sharing some of this dark stuff, which can be difficult to talk about. but before I let you go; I always like to leave an episode with my guest plugging something that makes them feel good.

Little bit of a pay its forward thing for you to share with the audience so that they might be able to tune into that as well.

Joey’s Recommendation

Joey: I just want to tell everybody, like if you’re out there struggling or just anything, just remember, hope is always there. Even when you’re ready to give up and, whatever’s going on with your mental health, whatever it is, addiction.

 there’s always hope. And, just by looking at stuff with like the glass half full life is so much better, and just being grateful, and, in the moments and just like not looking at someone’s else’s door of opportunity and looking through mine. So, I don’t miss my door of opportunity.

Lives so much easier. but that’s how I do it. I stay grateful. Dr. Scott Cook wrote a book.

the prescription to heal your career.

And is, is him as a physician just like me as a social worker and, and you, yourself is, we work jobs that like, we can’t feed you unless I’m fed, so his book focuses on being able to work and heal ourselves and work on that stuff. So, check it out on Amazon, the prescription to heal your career.

He’s an amazing guy, Dr. Scott A. Cook, and he’s one of my good friends.

Simon: Awesome. I’ll put that in the show notes too. again, Joey, thanks so much for your time. I really do appreciate your time on a Sunday evening over there. really appreciate it and I’m looking forward to the episode coming out.

Joey: Thank you so much. I appreciate you, Simon. Have a good day.