Simon: G’Day guys, and welcome to another episode of The Mindful Men Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about understanding and engaging with our emotions and how doing this can help us in our parenting journeys.

Simon: And joining me for today’s discussion, I’ve got Marie Vakakis from Melbourne Victoria.

How you going Marie?

Marie: I’m well, thanks. How are you? Good morning.

Simon: Good morning. I’m going very well, really excited to have this chat today because as we were talking about off air as a therapist, I’m often talking about emotional regulation and managing emotions with my clients. So, I’m keen to hear your thoughts as well.

but as an introduction, you’re a relationships and wellbeing educator, family therapist, the owner of Therapy Hub, and an accredited mental health social worker. So, thanks for joining me. Quite the CV.

Marie: Oh, thank you.

Simon: And Happy International Social Worker Day for yesterday. So, we’re recording this on the 22nd of March and International Social Worker Day was the 21st of March.

so, I’m going to talk a bit about that later and how you got into social work, what social work means to you. But I’d like to start off each episode and just finding out a bit more about my guests. So where did you grow up?

Are you from Melbourne? Tell us some of those key life events that led you towards social work.

Marie’s Background

Marie: Ooh, yes, I am from Melbourne. my family are Greek migrants, so, both sets of grandparents came over from, from Greece. Childhood probably wasn’t anything that led me to social work or to, my current work.

But when I finished high school, I did a gap year teaching English, in Ecuador. And I was just really interested in people, in anthropology and culture and languages. and I studied an arts degree majoring in psychology. So that just felt like, yeah, that’s a good mix of everything. and then I just sort of, realized psychology was very sort of individual. I just focused a lot of just the person, not so much the environment.so I moved into a master of social work and then just kept adding things from there. So, most of my experience have been working with young people and adolescents, and then I realized, oh, they come with parents.

And I felt a really ill-equipped to handle some of the conversations with parents. So I went back to uni, studied, family therapy. So now that’s brought together working with young people, working with parents, some couple’s therapies on top of that. And now that’s sort of branched off into the wellbeing relationship, education where I spend some of my time training, organizations in Mental Health First Aid.

I do parent, education courses like tuning into teens. today I’m launching my own parenting course called Connected Teens. So really focusing on the importance of relationships and connection as a way to keep, mentally well. So yeah, that sums up that, the career bit. I love to get outdoors, hiking, camping, started trying paddle boarding, so that’s pretty new.

So, learning to balance out on, on a big board in the water, fair weather paddle border. Cause I don’t want to fall in on a cold day. But, yeah, that’s kind of, that’s me.

Simon: Yeah, I loved how you said that you took a gap year and went overseas and did some work overseas. In the episode that we’ve just released with Josh Binger, he was talking about how he finished high school, didn’t get the kind of grades that he needed to get into uni, but also didn’t really know what he wanted to do.

So ended up working for a few years before he went to uni as a mature age student and found it so much more beneficial because he kind of knew what he wanted to do. He was a bit more committed to study how did that gap year shape your future learning pathways and did it solidify anything in you or to give you a fresh perspective of what you wanted to do when you were older?

The benefits of taking a Gap year and Travelling

Marie: I, I had applied for Uni and I deferred it. So, for me, I was always going to go to uni and I found I, I liked studying and I, I found, Formal education, not too difficult. So, for me it wasn’t a, I dunno what to do, but the traveling really did give me, and if you think back, you know, without, I mean my mid-thirties, so when I was traveling at 18, it was, it was a lot, scarier than now.

It was like a lonely planet book, highlighting little bits to go to. There was dial up internet that you have to use from an internet cafe. So, for me it really builds that capacity that I have a, a confidence in sort of, if I can navigate that, then there are other things I can do quite easily. So, I think it really just built confidence, and understanding of different cultures.

A lot of empathy for, international students or for foreigners who come here who don’t speak a word of English, like I spoke no Spanish at all. and very few people there in that town spoke English. So, it was a really big learning opportunity for character building for understanding people, trying to communicate without words.

So, it was really amazing. I would love to do, that again. it was really, really great kind of experience.

Simon: Yeah, certainly that lived experience of life can help, frame the way that we go about things like study, but then work as well and, and then family life as we get older.

What was the draw towards psychology? Was that something that you’d always wanted to do? I do talk to a lot of people in this kind of profession who have a bit of a mental health history or story that kind of led them to that work. Other people are just inquisitive. What was the draw towards psychology in the first instance?

Choosing Social work as a career

Marie: It was just a subject I did at high school. So, I did a lot of health-related subjects like health and human development, biology, psychology, and I didn’t know what jobs you could do, so there was no sort of degree. There was nothing I knew of. maybe when I didn’t have a meeting with a career’s counsellor, I didn’t know what social work was, so I just looked for courses that had the subjects that I liked, and psychology was one of them.

it had a lot of things around development, like the subjects were around, like human development, brain development, you know, sensory perception that sounded interesting. I did criminology, which sounded quite interesting as well. So yeah, it was just sort of following my interests and hoping that that would lead to something I could do.

that could lead to some sort of, career. And then I started working as a personal carer while I was at uni, and then working more and more with, mostly with young adults who had, more of that social support needs, so needed somebody to, to access the community. So, sort of like what N D I S packages might offer now, those different packages back then.

And then I just sort of moved into more of the psychosocial rehabilitation side of things. So, it, it was sort of just follow my nose and see what happens. Yeah.

Simon: you mentioned that the psychology focus was to individualize and you were looking for something a bit broader. And that’s what I love about social work is how broad it can go and how people are in different contexts and different environments.

So, talk us through the decision to go back and study your master’s degree in social work

Marie: I didn’t know what a mental health social worker was, until probably when I applied, the social work degree, I was literally just looking at masters and, and reading the subjects and seeing what was interesting. and there were things in sort of community development I found interesting.

I didn’t know that OT also had a qualifying masters that would’ve been maybe something I’d be interested in or speech therapy. So, I was really sort of open to anything, I guess when your psychology undergrad, they don’t tell you that you you’re not qualified to do anything.

No job hired you for anything more than maybe an entry level case manager. But there was very little career progression without a skill, without being a something. I looked at the Masters of counselling and psychotherapy. So, I just sort of, I still wanted something general cause I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do.

And that degree just looked interesting. the placements, even though they’re gruelling when you’re in them, I like the idea of being able to try different, areas of social work. and then I did another year of, research pathway just to kind of see, oh, do I like research? It turns out not so much, but I did it anyway. So, yeah, it was just, to give me a broader range of skills and opportunity to see what I liked and what was interesting.

Simon: Yeah. So, what led you to the private practice? because you’re the or Director of Therapy Hub, what led you towards that end, and doing that kind of work in social work?

Marie: over time I got jobs, in sort of mental health case management and mental health rehabilitation, and then moved into, counselling. So, I worked in the education system as a wellbeing coordinator and school counsellor at various schools. And then it was just something I really enjoyed. I liked the counselling bit, so I started, at someone else’s practice as a contractor, working part-time while I also did some more office-based work and kind of training and it just sort of evolved. It was something that I thought I really enjoy, started working for myself. Then, you know, I was renting a room by the hour, then thought, oh, I might get something a little bit more permanent. Found a bigger rental property. I was like, well, now I have all these rooms I’ve got to rent out. And it just sort of kept growing. And I realized as I started doing business development and business coaching and listening to podcasts around private practice, that I could create an environment that was not only really great to work for, so I would enjoy going to work and hopefully the team members do, but we could create a specialty or a niche within the counselling space for the young folk that we work with. So, we’ve got quite a, quite a good reputation for working with, young autistic adults or young people, ADHDers, a lot of queer community. We have a lot of trans and non-binary folks, so we’re very inclusive. we have a lot of parents join sessions with under 18, so I’ve been able to create I guess an environment where I can provide the kind of clinical work with those social work, ideas in mind and then build the model around that. So, it’s sort of, it just kind of kept happening.

Simon: What was it like going to business? because I’ve recently gone to business in August last year and I’m still finding my feet I feel, I’m getting some slow traction, but it was a big scary thing to go from, I had a public service career, stable, income, stable job. I have to find all my own clients now and have to market, and I have to do all the admin. I have to do everything. What was that like for you in your experience?

Starting a small business

Marie: It’s been really quite challenging. Sometimes I wonder if I would do it again. I’m not sure if I would do it again, because I think to do it well, it’s actually, it’s wearing a different hat and it’s one of the things that I find difficult when I’m looking for a service. If someone’s like, oh, I don’t do the business side, I just do this. I’m like, well, it’s kind of, you’re a small business owner when you start doing those things, so you have to, you have to be compliant with tax and G S T and BAS statements and bookkeeping and insurance and unexpected costs and budgeting and like, so there’s this whole other thing, that I’ve had to have a lot of support around, external services and, guidance from other professionals so that I can get that bit running well.

Because I think it’s still, it’s good patient care or good client care. So, if I’m sitting there in a session thinking about a bill that’s unpaid or my mind is elsewhere, I’m not going to be a good therapist. So, it’s, it’s been really, it’s been hard and it’s very intentional trying to put all those things in place so that when I’m there in front of somebody, I can be there as a therapist, and then I split my days. So, I have my days where I just do therapy and I don’t do any other business admin. And then I have days where I just do business admin and I don’t do therapy. So, I can try separate, and I do them from different locations so that I’m not, my brain doesn’t jump around between the two tasks. I used to try and do it all in one, and it was just too much.

Simon: Yeah, definitely. I get distracted by the shiny lights and emails coming in or phone calls and then all of a sudden, my day’s gone. So, it is a challenge as, I guess as young people with, with businesses or social workers, we want to be in doing everything, but sometimes we have to know our limits and I like how you’re looking outwards as well to help get that guidance. I’ve got a few coaches myself and now I’ve even got a VA helping me with some admin stuff and when we can start outsourcing, it just makes business and social work easier. I think. that’s my year is outsourcing whatever I can so that I can just focus on the clients. Because at the end of the day, that’s why I’m here. So, let’s talk about emotions.

Marie: Let’s just squish them down and don’t worry about it.

Simon: Squish them down. Well, that’s what so many men have been doing so long, and that’s what I talk about regularly, both with my clients, but on the social media stuff, on my own podcast episodes that I’m either a guest on or the ones where I’m doing solo episodes, it’s all around that suppression of emotions.

And, I grew up in the eighties, nineties, northern suburbs of Adelaide working class low socio economic, and the environment and that time, that period of time was, men don’t cry, boys don’t cry. Let’s not talk about this stuff, let’s just suck it up and move on. So, from your, experience and perspective, why do we need to understand our emotions, and particularly for guys older and younger, like why is this an important thing as well?

Understanding emotions

Marie: Yeah, Yeah, that’s a really big question. I think understanding emotions they act like signposts to tell us what is important to us in our life. So, you know, if you feel rejected about something that might tell you that you tried really hard and you maybe weren’t appreciated or acknowledged, or perhaps you had hopes and expectations that weren’t met. So, values sort of signpost what’s important to us and there’s no bad emotion. Even anger, jealousy, envy, there’s no bad emotion. There are, however, unhelpful behaviours or bad behaviours or inappropriate behaviours. So, I think that’s something we really want to separate. an idea that there’s no bad feeling or emotion, but there are behaviours that are not okay and not acceptable. And the thing with, you know, when I’d see men in counselling, I think one of the challenges is we can do a lot of work in the counselling space to start to understand emotions and explore it. But if their relationships outside of just that interaction with me aren’t on that same journey or open to it, it can almost set people up to fail. Because you could teach someone, yeah, it’s really great to talk about your emotions. And they’re like, they get there, they’re okay, amazing. I’m going to be vulnerable and authentic. And then they go home to a partner or to a boss and say, actually that made me really uncomfortable when you said that. And their boss turned out like, what the hell are you talking about? You know? So sometimes it can be really hard, I think for men in particular, if they’re trying something new that other people aren’t kind of aware that they’re trying something new or aren’t on that same page. it can be a negative reinforcement. So, they can think, well, I’m not going to try this again because look at the response I got, so I’m going to squish this down. The one time I tried to be vulnerable, it didn’t work. And so that can actually make progress a little bit harder. I see a lot of growth when people start to have children. I think that’s when they start to realize, oh, there are some blind spots. I’ve got some really great things that my parents taught me and I’ve got some things that I want to do differently, but then I don’t know how to do it differently and that’s often where, where they come to see me or attend one of the parenting courses is with an awareness of this is important. I, I get the value, but I dunno where to start.

Simon: I often reflect on this with dads, new dads particularly, and, they say, I want to be a different dad to the dad that I grew up with, or the dad that I didn’t have. But then what happens is they, they kind of automatically fall into those same behaviours that they experienced as a child themselves.

And then they have a whole bunch of things like guilt and, the one that comes up to my mind is things like a quick temper or anger outburst, yelling maybe when the child is, you know, misbehaving or carrying on, even to the extent of smacking as well. Cause you know, in the eighties and nineties I got smacked and I remember the time that I smacked my son, there was only a light tap, on the hand. But afterwards I felt so guilty about that and shameful and I was doing my social work at the time, so I kind of had the theoretical side behind me, but I went into automatic, what did my dad do when I misbehaved? And so, I’ve never done it again. And I’m more consciously looking into that. And I know so many dads out there are consciously looking into this particular space. how do you, coach guys or counsel guys and, mums as well who might be feeling similar, like in terms of trying to let go of some of that old baggage and, and redefine their own parenting style. That’s suitable for 2020 2022 and beyond.

Building strong connections in relationships

Marie: Yeah. So, in, in one-on-one work, I really focus on the connection. So, a lot of people traditionally have thought that sort of therapy or mental health services are for mental illness. but I have a lot of people who come and see me for support to do things differently, to untangle patterns of behaviour that they find unhelpful or relationship support. So that fits in really nicely with that. My experience is not so much with the younger, children, but I guess the strategies would be the same is teaching people to learn some ways to self-regulate.

So, learn some ways to, if you can catch that anger or frustration, how do we interrupt that? So that might be the basic bit where we start is just how do you even, notice it’s coming up. Is it a physical sensation? Is it some thoughts or do you notice that when you’re tired or you are stretched for time, that’s when you are short-tempered.

So sometimes it is taking a bit of a, you know, zoom out and see what’s the bigger picture that’s leading up to that. And that can be quite confronting for people. I know that, you know, I would find it, difficult or I do when, I notice those things about me. It’s like, well, maybe I’m more short-tempered if I’m, if I’ve overscheduled or if I’ve put too many things on.

So that’s where I bring in a lot of, acceptance and commitment therapy. I like a lot of act work. what are your values? What’s the kind of parent you want to be, and then how can you take some small steps each day for that? So yeah, you might not have time for a 30-minute relaxation meditation, but maybe you could sit in your car just for one minute before you get out, just to kind of take a few breaths.

you know, quick body scan. Am I, am I angry? Am I frustrated? Am I kind of prickly? Because if you walk in the door and you’ve just had, you’re late, you’re hungry, there was traffic. It might then be like a tornado that comes through the house. So, it is just trying to find ways to slowly build skills throughout the day that get you a little bit closer towards that goal.

And then I encourage people to learn more. I know some people think, I was parented this way, I turned out fine. I’ll just keep doing it. But parenting changes. Your children might not be carbon copies of you. There might be different expectations. So, finding some resources that are helpful.

There are some really great, parenting books out there, podcast episodes, online courses. Like you can digest things in whatever piece that you need, whether you like books, you like listening. so, I think it’s really helpful to sort of start to upskill and then think about those sorts of blind spots perhaps, and tools that you, you might need.

Simon: Yeah. I love how you brought up acceptance and commitment therapy, because that’s the, modality that I teach in my one-to-one sessions with guys. And we do values-based work, we do grounding techniques and I often find like that being present is a real key here. And in terms of if you are, the more present we are as dads and partners as well.

This is not just exclusive to parenting, but also just relationships with our partners. The more present we are, then the more likely or the more possible it is or easier it is to, to identify when we’re about to see red, for example. And, and that includes things like, I love that that body scan just before you walk through the door, maybe sitting in the car and, and actually I, I talked to one of my clients about this very thing about doing a body scan, maybe a one minute, two minute, three minute meditation or, or just breath work, before he then goes into the home environment after a long day on the tools so that he can be more present the phone’s down, he’s not thinking about work and he’s just in the moment. And, and that certainly does help us regulate these emotions as we’re coming in because often, we also don’t know what’s we’re going to walk into.

It can be calm, and I say can, I’ve got two little ones. So, it’s often like hectic as soon as I walk through the door, if I’m late for the day or whatever. And, you know, the kids, they’ve got, they’re tired from school, if your partner’s been working from home or even coming home from work themselves or had a long day with a bub, there’s a whole bunch of stuff that’s happened when you haven’t been there as a dad particularly.

And it can be very challenging and I often find, and I talk to the guys that I work with around reflecting afterwards. Cause it can be really hard in the moment to catch yourself before you do lose your stuff. But then as long as we’re reflecting backwards and then that might help the next time or the next time, and then the slow steps and eventually developing that essentially that compound interest.

You know, just be 1% better today than you were yesterday. And then build up those skills, and do that regularly so that you don’t lose your temper as much as a dad, for example. but I’ve only got little ones, so tell me about your work with teens because I always love to pick therapists experience of working with slightly older children so I can prepare myself mentally for what’s to come.

So how do we work with teens and, manage emotions and teens identify emotions. And what’s some stuff that you encourage us to look out for?

Parenting Teens and understanding their emotions

Marie: Yeah. So, I would encourage, folks to start from whatever age there, children are, because it’s a building block. And if you, you use the example of compound interest and it really is that.

So, if you think of something like, the sex talk? You know, people like, oh, I’m dreading having this. I’m going to wait till they’re 15. It’s like, you start with wherever they’re at. So that starts with, a body consent. So, it might be like, oh, I’m about to put your overalls on, or, you don’t have to hug people that you don’t want to.

So whatever age you are at those small conversations about what might be awkward topic stuff from then, because you don’t just magically have this, connected, fulfilled, beautiful relationship when they’re teenagers, if you haven’t built that up over time. And it doesn’t mean that you can’t make up for, for not being as involved earlier on.

but it does start with wherever you are at. The difference with teenagers, is the role that parents play and this is where I, I see I guess the biggest ruptures in the family unit is probably around that grade six to year seven, sort of as they’re transitioning from kid to the teenager is where things can seem to get a little frayed and families. Can find it quite jarring or feeling quite rejected. So, parents move from what we call manager to consultant. So, they move from being very involved, taking their kids everywhere, telling them what to do, packing lunches, planning the weekends, everything’s sort of, this is what we’re doing. and then as they become adolescents, sometimes it can feel like you get fired from that role, and parents can handle that in a number of ways. And I see that as being one of the key bits of, opportunities for connection. So, parents can play such a vital role in modelling to their children, good mental health, good relationships, good coping strategies, even if they’re being difficult or you’re finding that you are not understanding what’s going on for them.

If that relationship can stay solid, even if it looks different, is important. So, when you get that, yeah, fired from manager, it’s sort of like people get fired from work. So, some will just be like, well, stuff you, you’re on your own. You don’t need me. It’s clear that you don’t, my skills aren’t valued here.

And they get really, sort of flippant about it. And some parents can do that. It’s like, well, you don’t need. Fine. You’re on your own. dinners in the microwave heated up and they move away completely, and that can be really unhelpful because they still need you around.

It looks different, but they still need you around. Some folks do this like unfair dismissal. They go to like litigation, they get lawyers. So, some parents are trying to like stay manager. They’re really fighting for this, like for their position. and again, that causes so much conflict and this is where being mindful and present and understanding your emotions, if you can say, oh fuck, I’m feeling rejected. This hurts. I have literally wiped their butts. I’ve done all these things for them you know, if you’ve got kids with, with additional needs like you might have done all of this work and now they don’t need me, that can feel gut wrenching. it can feel like a huge rejection, but if we can normalize that that’s actually part of the, adolescent development that they need to start pushing healthy boundaries, spending time with friends, building their character, their autonomy.

They don’t hate you; they’re trying to differentiate. They’re trying to, to kind of become themselves. You can then handle it differently and you think, okay, I’ve been, let go from this position. I’ve been made redundant, but they can hire me back as a consultant. I can do this work with them as an advisor if they want it side by side and sometimes even side by side, and just like a little step back. And, and that I think is one of the most important things to keep in mind is that it’s normal, it’s healthy. They’re not being difficult or they don’t hate you, or they’re not necessarily withdrawing because they’re unwell. They might be and that’s sort of a different conversation to have.

but the role of parenting changes and how you handle that is very different, has very different outcomes.

Simon: I often have this discussion with the older parents that come onto the show and then they say they go through these turbulent times and then the children, when they’re young adults come back around, they’re back. And it’s all like nothing happened in the teenage years.

And as you were talking, I was actually reflecting on my own teenage years and so many stories similar, like that’s the time we’re exploring things like our body, our sexuality, what we can get away with, what we can’t get away with, you know, driving all sorts of stuff. So, there’s big stuff happening and we’re trying to prepare ourselves as teenagers or this is my recollection of it, for adulthood, trying to figure out what career do I want? Do I go study, do I do a gap year? There’s a lot to process in that time and often I feel there’s so much energy and thought processes put into schooling. So, you know, schooling for what, 12, 13 years? That when teenagers come to the end of high school, if they don’t know what they want to do when they’re older and often many of them don’t, it’s really scary because that’s all they’ve known for all their life. And so, then what? Like what do they do then? And I often talk to anyone who’s interested and like, And I loved how you do the gap year. I never took a gap year. I went straight into uni, but I wish I kind of did have the means to do a gap year or even a guidance.

I didn’t even have the guidance because my parents, no one went to uni in my household. It was straight into work and just to experience the real world and just see that there is life after high school and even, you don’t have to finish school. You can, you know, leave early and get work.

A lot of young tradies do that. They go through an apprenticeship So there is a big world out there that is different to school. so, I’m interested from your perspective, what’s some of the common things that people are coming in with? what are they anxious about or emotional about?

Is it school finishing? Is it uni, is it careers? is it climate change? I’m really interested to know if you, if anyone, any of your clients talk about climate change. It’s a real big issue, I think, for young people.

Validating your child’s emotions

Marie: Yeah. We do have a lot of young folks who are, have got climate anxiety. I think the biggest, piece that I’ve noticed, and that’s once you become a family therapist, you can’t not see the system is the way that the people around them deal with support or don’t talk about emotions. And one of the things that I see parents get stuck on, is they try to fix it.

They try to create a smooth path for their young person to, to go through. they don’t want to have unpleasant feelings. They don’t want ’em to have to worry. If you ask parents, what do you want for your kids? I’ll say, I want ’em to be happy. And, you know, being happy all the time is, it’s bullshit.

It’s not the natural state of humans. We’re not supposed to be happy all the time. We’re allowed to be sad. We’re allowed to grieve; we’re allowed to feel anxious. And I think that’s, if I could, if parents listening, could take away one thing is stop trying to fix them. Listen, you might not understand why they’re crying or they’re upset because their friend left them on read, so they sent a text message or a WhatsApp or whatever tech they use.

The friends read it and didn’t reply. That might send your teen into a world of distress. You don’t have to say “they’re high school friends, don’t worry about it”, you can just, yeah, I’d be upset too if I felt rejected You don’t even have to say what’s wrong or why are you feeling like that?

Because often they don’t know. But if you can label it or just give them space and let them know through your actions that it’s okay to feel feelings. That’s probably going to be the biggest thing because if we’re suppressing anger, if we’re feeling like every time we express anxiety, someone tries to fix it or problem solve it, we internalize it and people shut down.

 So, we want to create opportunities in sort of just general wellbeing. To be able to sit and tolerate icky feelings. And I’ll, share an example. So, one of the courses I run, it’s not my, intellectual property Melbourne University created tuning into teens and it’s a brilliant program.

it’s also got a tuning into kids’ version, so if you, you can do that. I think they might even offer it online, but I’d really recommend parents look at that is we talk about this idea of meta emotion. So, it’s how we feel about feelings and one of the groups we were talking about, grief and sadness, and one of the participants said, oh, my children’s,

 Guinea pig died. I’m like, okay, so what did you, she’s like, “I went and bought another”, “Why?” “I didn’t want them to be sad”. It’s like interesting. “So, you have a belief or a feeling about sadness that it’s not okay. Maybe it’s self-indulgent”, “Yep. And I just didn’t want it for them”. And it’s not to say that there’s a right way or wrong way to do things, but it was getting her to think what would be the impact of that long term grief and sadness are feelings that we feel no one’s life is untouched by, by sadness or trauma or grief, that we’ll all have something. There’s no end point. you can’t protect them forever, but if they saw the Guinea pig had died, maybe you had a little burial or ceremony, you helped them process and understand that it might make it easier or they might know what to do for the next time.

So, it’s thinking about opportunities. Let teens, adolescents, even partners, just be in their emotions and notice that, see it as an opportunity to connect. and the problem to fix or the thing to solve is it’s not up to you.

Simon: I like that as you were saying, that I was reflecting on this notion of good enough parenting.

And as parents, we try to be as perfect as possible. We try to fix everything when it needs to be fixed, but then we kind of get ourselves in our own little bit of a rut because when things aren’t getting fixed or aren’t getting better, we really put ourselves down as parents saying, I’m not a good enough parent.

I’m terrible parent. I’m the worst person in the world. They don’t love me. What am I doing wrong? But then this notion was around we only need to get it right, a portion of the time. And then the rest of the time is our children getting it right for themselves?

Do you ever talk to some of the parents around good enough parenting?

Marie: Yeah, there is actually a book, I think called the Good Enough Parent, which, I’ve heard some really good things about. I think it, well that comes with that rejection, right, of.

What’s wrong with me? What have I done wrong? And sometimes if you think about how you act, when you think that way, that’s what sometimes creates the pattern. So, if your kid’s coming home from school and you’re feeling rejected and you are feeling disconnected, and you’re like, how was your day?

What did you do? And they just give you a eh. And then you’re like, you never talk to me. I can’t believe this. So, then I have that family in the room and the parents, like, I ask them every day how their day was and I just dunno what I’m doing wrong. And I. What happened? Let’s unpack that and it’s in the way that that’s being asked.

And then what message or what belief that parent’s then putting on that, that kid might have just come back from a communal public transport. They’re, you know, maybe missed lunch or they’re hungry, or they’ve just had like six subjects of different teachers, different sensory environments, different peers, and then.

You’ve got a parent home being so eager to connect that the way they’re trying to connect actually is overwhelming or too much for the young person. So sometimes that, anxious parenting can actually be, what creates some of those patterns, unfortunately. And it’s not up to the young person to break it because they haven’t learned how to do that yet.

Simon: Yeah. I love that response. And, what about tech though? we’re in the age of video games and connections through different social media and even our use of technology can bring about certain emotions. Whether we’ve lost a game on the PlayStation and we are blowing up or getting frustrated because we can’t solve a problem.

Or, you know, engaging with our friendship circles but also maybe put things like bullying through social media apps. Has that type of work come up for you and how do you navigate that if it has?

Gaming as a positive activity

Marie: Look, the tools I think are still the same because you want to be meeting people where they’re at.

So, if you, a young person plays football, great, go watch them play football. If they’re into gaming, ask some questions about that. Don’t put it up that wall of, I don’t understand it, or it’s not my thing, because that’s going to make them feel really, unimportant. If they read books, ask them about the kind of books that they read.

So, for some people, gaming is an incredible world of strategy. You know, I’m working with a young boy who every time we play a board game, he whoops my butt, he beats me in everything and I, I don’t try to let them win, like I will try and he just picks up any new game after one go, then works out how to win it.

Like he’s got this amazing brain for strategy and that’s come from his video gaming. And so, you know, giving them a chance to talk about what they like, what they don’t like, what’s interesting about it. He talks about that he loves that he can let out anger in a healthy way. He’s like, I get to blow stuff up.

I know that’s not okay. I can’t blow stuff up in real life, but here I get to. So, he, for him, it’s created a rich fantasy world. And I think it’s no different to reading books about, you know, dragons We know that that’s not real.

it’s meeting them where they’re at and also you can set boundaries and limitations. So, you can just, like, if someone was reading books for 10 hours a day and you’re like, you’ve got some homework to do, you can set boundaries and limitations around tech.

And the, the key thing here, which some people might not like, is you have to role model it too. So, you can’t say you’re always on your device if you are always on your device. Yeah. And if you’re like, oh, it’s just a work caller, it’s just a this, or I’m just whatever.

Modelling that behaviour, you’re modelling that the phone maybe is more important than your partner or your child. That yeah, you’re spending time together, you’re in the same space, but your attention is not there. And probably that’s one of the biggest, grievances when I have couples in for couples therapy is one partner being on the phone, not engaging, not being present.

So, they’re like, what do you mean I’m watching TV with you? But they’ve got one hand out, scrolling or playing a mind-numbing game or just flipping through the news. So, when we talk about gaming addiction, that’s not my area of expertise, but if we can bring it back to those basic bits of connection and seeing opportunity to get to know what that person’s into, and then using technology mindfully and having time away from it. I think those bits could be quite helpful in that conversation.

Simon: Yeah. using technology mindfully. You know, I grew up playing video games. I love video games and, I’ve experienced the highs and lows of video gaming and if I’m starting to work with a young person and talking to their parent, they’re like, oh, they, they play video games and I hate it.

And particularly in the N D I S space or the disability space, where I see it as, as something that is skill building. It’s something where they are strategizing and, in some cases, they’re socializing because they’re actually engaged in online conversations with people that they can’t do in real life. You know, they can’t just go down the park for whatever reason.

Whether it’s sensory overload or, maybe they just don’t live near people that they can communicate with. The online gaming environment can be really helpful for that. but as, you said, as long as you’re doing it mindfully and, and within limitation, you don’t want to be doing 10 to 12 15 hours a day because there is a world out there to live and, and

 different obligations too.

Marie: Yeah. Even if you meditated for 10 hours a day, if you were going on a silent meditation retreat. Yeah, maybe That’s great. So, if you’re training for a particular event in a, in, an online game, great.

But if you’re using it to numb to reduce, to disconnect, even doing a 10-hour meditation, if you’re like, oh, I am doing this to avoid that stuff that’s unhelpful. So sometimes it’s less about the activity and more about what function that activity serves.

Simon: Absolutely. And so many parents I find come unstuck a little bit in this area because they didn’t grow up with video games.

They’re a bit older and they’re like, I can’t get this, I don’t understand this, but I love how you said it’s meeting people where they’re at, showing an interest in that. why do you love this Minecraft? Show me how it works. Let me explore that with you. And that can also bring about new connections as well.

 Particularly for the maybe the dads who haven’t been in the lives of their children, growing up, they, maybe they’ve come and gone and they’re trying to reconnect video games is a great way to do that. Or sport, you know, arts and crafts,

whatever other hobby they’ve got as well.

Spending time with your children to build connections

Marie: And sometimes it’s asking them or being really clear about it.

So, some parents they’re like, just go out and play and you might have a 14-year-old. Play? What are you talking about? Play? so sometimes you need to do it with them. And I think that’s really hard. Like love for, kids are time, being around, being available, doing things together. That’s how kids feel loved. So it might be, let’s go shoot some hoops, let’s walk the dog together. Or being honest, I’m feeling really disconnected. I’d love to find something we can do that’s just ours. Do you have some ideas?

For some kids it might be, you know, I’ve got one family that we posed as a question. They’re like, yeah, bubble tea. So that’s what they do. They go with, with that parent and they get bubble tea. Another person, we realized they commuted from quite far to get to the session. And I just had a theory, I was like, I’m going to test this out. I’m like, do you actually like the fact that to come to these sessions, you get quality time with your parents for the commute there and back? And he’s like, yeah, it’s the only time I get with them one-on-one. So, I was the, the thing that brought them together. But what was actually most helpful is what they would talk about on the way to and from the sessions.

 So, if we didn’t identify that he would’ve just kept coming for therapy because he liked the fact that he got some quality time with his parents. So sometimes it’s around doing things with them. I don’t know how to do this. Let’s do it together. What would be interesting to you? you know, I, I don’t really like anime, but let me show me some of your Favorite episodes.

Let’s see if I can, you can find one that I liked together or, so it’s really trying to meet them where they’re at instead of the other way around. Like I see parents try really hard to force kids to do hiking and camping and they get really distressed because in their mind they’re like, my parents never gave me this.

I love this. I love the outdoors. I’m going to give my kids all this opportunity and. They’d rather just be on their iPad. and then that becomes a conflict and a source of tension. And so, it’s really trying to meet them where they’re at. Maybe they don’t want to go camping, but they’d be okay with, somewhere where you got to see the scenery, but stay in a cabin.

Maybe they want to do art, like, you know, they might be not playing games on their iPad, but they might be using procreate and drawing. So, it’s really, if, if you want to build that relationship, it’s actually meeting them where they’re at, not trying to get them to fill a void for you or for you to give them what you didn’t have because they’re not you. And then I kind of turn around and say, I really appreciate that you gave me these opportunities that I know you didn’t have, because that’s, that’s not what kids do. Maybe as adults they might see some of that. but to maintain that connection, it’s really meeting them where they’re at.

Simon: Yeah. I had this really cool discussion once with someone, I can’t remember who it was, but the idea stuck in my mind cause you’re talking about camping and taking them out and forcing them to go, do this, that, and something. There was this really cool idea of, for one holiday or one activity, the parents plan it all and they’d do it, but for the next one, it all goes to the kids.

 even from the planning perspective, how are we going to get to this place and do this thing? Are we driving there? Are we going to catch a bus? Are we going to catch a train? Whatever it is. And then what are we going to do there? And, the parents are there to guide the appropriate decision making around that particular situation, because we can’t always go to Disneyland or wherever. But that gives some of the control to the kids and then you can find out what they actually want to do if you’re stuck with ideas or you’re finding that they’re just miserable in the car and don’t want to go to the camping side or hiking or whatever.

And I find that’s a really cool, unique thing to do. So, every now and then, I might say to my son and I’m like, what do you want to do today? Let’s, you know, particularly school holidays. Let’s just do that. And usually, it’s just going to check out Pokémon cards or whatever. But that’s pretty cool as well.

Like I’m, I’m starting to rediscover my own childhood love for Pokémon, so that’s the big theme in, in our household today. So sometimes it can, create sparks as well and renew interests as well. Like, I’ve got a guitar there and the kids love coming in and playing that, you know, I haven’t really played since I was in high school and, uni.

So as an adult now, I’m rediscovering the guitar again and, and getting a lot of joy out of that. So sometimes giving those reins over is really helpful for that as well. Maria, I really enjoyed talking about emotions with you and your insights. So, I’d love to hear a little bit more about Therapy Hub and the work that you do.

Discover Therapy Hub’s services

Marie: Yeah, so the therapy hub is based in Melbourne. We have, nine, I think practitioners at the moment, and we offer face-to-face counselling and telehealth.

we do run some courses. a new website’s being built under my name, so it’s marievakakis.com.au and through that I’ll be running, my own parenting course called Connected Teens, so that goes on sale today. and I do have a little promo code, for Listeners so they can use the primo code, mindfulmen20 for 20% off and if they sign up before the 5th of April, they’ll get the 20% off the early bird and free webinar on adolescent development. And that’s really bringing together family therapy frameworks with acceptance and commitment therapy.

So, I’m really stepping people through how to reflect on how they were parented. And what impact that’s had on their parenting. We do some values exploration and then we start looking at some of those emotion roadblocks. So handling, rejection, moving from manager to consultants. So, I’m really trying to support people during that transition.

If your family’s already in a lot of distress or there’s a lot of mental health challenges, it’s not for that stage of life. So that’s one of the things. I sometimes run tuning into teens online, which is also a really great program. and I travel across Victoria delivering mental health first aid in, in workplaces.

So, both the adult and the youth one. So, some people listening might think that’s a really great thing for their team, so feel free to get in touch. but yeah, try to sort of do a lot of the health promotion as well as early intervention stuff through my business under my name and the therapy hub provides the counselling and support and a lot of our team there also, do various other things and have other expertise.

Simon: Yeah, cool. And we’ll put all the links to the website and the program and that code as well in, in the show notes so people can just access that pretty easily. last question before I let you go. It’s always like to finish each episode with my guest plugging something that makes them feel good. So, it doesn’t have to be anything to do with what we’ve discussed today. It’s just something that you are listening to watching, experiencing at the moment that makes you feel good, that you can pay it forward and maybe other people can tune into that as well.

Marie’s Recommendation

Marie: Yeah, so for me, physical activity, sometimes like I used to go for really long walks, but my Kelpie is now getting a little bit too old for super long walks. But sometimes I would just walk with, my headphones on and end up quite far from home and have to call someone to come pick me up because I didn’t leave enough juice for the return journey.

but now it’s going back to the gym. So, after lockdown, during lockdown, I realized how much I missed that environment. I quite like the direction of a trainer. and so, I went from thinking, oh, I have to go to the gym to now post lockdown saying I get to go. I get to leave my house. This is great.

And that little shift in mindset really helped. So, I get to see, some progression if I kind of build up the weights a little bit more at the time, I’ve maybe seen some, improvement in my mobility, but I also just feel good if I go. I like the routine. So, I would say that would be sort of the thing that makes me feel good is, is moving my body and now adding some yoga back in as well. So, trying to find ways to keep calm. I always try and work out, especially on my days where I see clients, because it, it keeps me level-headed for the rest of the day.

Simon: Yeah. Amazing the power of exercise is so good. Like even if it’s just gentle walking, I do a lot of walks and talk therapy with the guys that I work with or going to the gym and thrashing it out.

good to clear the mind and the body as well, and, and just keep things moving. So, Marie, thanks so much for sharing that, but also thanks for all your wisdom and expertise and, and sharing your story on the Mindful Men Podcast. I’ve really enjoyed our chat today.

Marie: My pleasure. It’s been awesome chatting.