Simon: G’Day guys, and welcome to another episode of the Mindful Men Podcast.

I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re getting mindful about time and energy management

Simon: and I’m really excited about this conversation. But also, a trigger warning that we will be discussing mental health. And if you do get triggered by mental health discussions, feel free to skip this episode. That’s okay. But if you do stick around and you do get triggered, please reach out to your support networks afterwards.

Welcome

Simon: And joining me for this discussion, I’ve got Alice Dartnell from Valencia, Spain at the moment. How you going Alice?

Alice: I’m good. I’m good. Thank you so much for having me, especially because I know it’s super early for you with the time difference as well,

Simon: No, it’s my pleasure. I love getting up early and doing podcasts, so thanks for so much for joining us now, Alice, you’re a life and success coach and author, trainer and speaker, and you’re really passionate about empowering people to create a life by design, not by default. I love this. and I think Covid really accelerated this kind of, this view of the world that we, a lot of us, myself included, just wanted to step out of that box that we’ve been living in for a long time and just really pursue our passion.

So, Super excited about this discussion. but first I’d like to hear a bit about you. Now, you don’t have a Spanish accent, even though you’re in Valencia.

Definitely not. so, I’d love to hear a bit about where you’re from and, what was it like growing up for you and, family, work or anything you’d like to share with us?

Alice’s Background

Alice: Yeah. So yeah, you’ll be able to tell from my accent that I’m not actually Spanish, although it does confuse people cause I’m very dark. my mom’s Japanese, so I’ve got olive skin, dark hair, and I do look very Spanish until I open my mouth. but I actually grew up in, if anyone knows England, Kent, it’s like the county next to London.

But I, I did the typical thing after university, went to London, to the big smoke to, to settle down and like do my career, et cetera. So, I was in London for 10 years. So, I do, I do technically class myself as a Londoner just because I was there for such a long time. But originally, I, I am from, from Kent and I spent about maybe eight years in corporate.

Always knew that one day I’d have my own business, you know, that kind of one day, one day. And finally got to that one day in, January, 2020. actually, did try to start the business in January 19, but had a little bit of, Yeah, to have a little bit of a false start. So, we started the business in January, 2020, which of course was just before the world pandemic.

but I’ve always, always been passionate about business, always knew that I was having my own business one day. Always wanted to help people and always loved traveling as well. So that kind of one day, one day, one day, yeah, it was, was always on the cards for me. Just that I could combine my passions of like helping people traveling and business.

And, yeah. I’m really grateful that here we are sitting at the end of 2022, as you say, I’m in Valencia and, running my business online and yeah. Traveling the world.

Simon: What was it about business that drew you towards the entrepreneurship journey?

What was it about that that inspired you to start your own business?

Alice: Yeah. I

think it was because I loved the freedom and creativity behind it. I, I’m not going to lie, I was a bit of a troublemaker at school and I went to, I went to a really good school. I dunno if you guys have grammars, but we’ve got grammars in the UK and you have to do an exam to, to get in and stuff.

So, it’s hard to get into a grammar. You’re surrounded by clever people. I got good grades, but I was always labelled the troublemaker. And in hindsight I don’t think it was because I was a troublemaker because it was a good school. I think it was just because I was that little gob shite that was like, yeah, but why?

And I was always that person that just asked questions, which obviously as a role as a coach is perfect like that is literally what I get paid to do now. But I was always that curious person, why is it like that? Why do we have to do it like that? Those rules don’t make sense. So then obviously I’ve just like labelled as naughty kid.

And also, I didn’t know back then that I was dyslexic. Like I’m severely dyslexic. So, Reading and writing, not my strongest forte. And I, you know, as I struggled academically in that sense, so smashed my exams, but also struggled at the same time. And so, I just always knew that I just didn’t fit in, if that made sense.

Like I just didn’t fit in. And then when you do the natural thing of going to university, going into corporate, and again, still not fitting in. So, I always had this underlying feeling that this is not what I was cut out for. And that actually I’m meant to be my boss. I’m meant to be my own business owner.

I like the creativity; I like the questioning. I love the, I love the, not challenging in a bad way, but why are we doing it like that, innovation, the, the, all that kind of thing. So yeah, it’s just always, always appealed to me. Like ever since I was about, oh God, ever since I was a teenager, actually, like always appealed to

me.

Simon: Yeah. So, like, what, what did you go do at, at university? What did you study at uni?

Alice: Well, I, I actually studied business studies, which everyone was like, oh, that must be so useful. No, I mean, I’m not even that old. I’m only 36, but back in the day, 15 years ago, we didn’t have social media. So, the fact that I grow my business on social media for free online, like the, the degree that I did is so null and void, to the business that I’m running now.

it literally is not worth the paper it’s printed on, but I think doing a generic degree was like good to get into the corporate world. but yeah, I, I have actually got a business degree, not that actually means to anything, to like having a business.

Simon: Yeah. so, you went into the corporate world.

What was that like? talk us through your journey in there. I’ve just stepped out of a 15-year career in a public service. So, it wasn’t in the corporate side of things, but it was a very corporate like, entity. Public service. so, what was it like for you? Trying to fit into that environment, knowing that you’re always asking why you’re always wanting to do something different or innovative. And, and how did you manage with that?

Working in the Corporate world

Alice: Probably not too well considering I got made redundant and, from my first job and sacked from my second, but no, in all seriousness, I’ve, I, I always felt like I didn’t fit in and if, yeah, I, I was good at what I did. I’m very passionate. I give 110%. I believe in leadership. I believe in empowering others. I believe in personal development. So, from that side of things, I climbed the ladder quite quick. And within a few years I was heading up the team, managing people twice my age.

So, I think on the outside it probably looked. I had it sussed and I had this grand plan of getting to director level by 30, 32. And then I was going to switch over to have my own business. And by this point I kind of figured out coaching was my thing, but I thought I was going to go into executive coaching. So, I was like, great plan.

You know, hit director at young age 32, prove my worth. Go into corporate coaching. In executive coaching. But at the same time, whilst on the outside, it probably looked like, you know, I was shit hot at the same time. I wasn’t me. And I really dulled myself down. If anyone looks at my Instagram, it is pink, it is sparkly, it is girly.

Like I write with a unicorn pen and I’m 36, but that’s who I am. And I had to dull that down in corporate and I had to dull down the sparkle in the pink and the glitter pencil case and the number of comments that I got as well, being, you know, being young, being a woman. And you know, someone referred to me as a fairy once because I was wearing pink and there just was no respect.

And I really felt like I was always trying to prove myself. And to do that, I was trying to blend in and I’ve been trying to blend in with these white, middle class, middle-aged males, which I’m not. And I found myself changing who I was to try and fit in and using words that I would never use the language for or, or even like trying to posh up my accent.

Like my friends used to call it my phone voice. Like if they called me at work and they’d be like, hello. And when I realized it was a friend, they’d be like, oh, you’re right mate? And they’re like, oh, you’re doing, you’re doing posh work, voice like, and just everything. And I had to really change who I was. And one of the biggest struggles, and I’m always open about this, one of the biggest struggles that I had coming out corporate into my own business.

Re-finding my identity and I, I lost who I was and suddenly when I got sacked and then was like, right, lemme take this opportunity to, have my own business, like I always said would, I didn’t know who I was. I was like, oh, okay. so, I don’t have to wear a gray suit. I can wear pink. It, it was, sounds so weird, but the just for me, corporate was, I did so well in my career, but at the same time, it was, it was such a struggle because it just didn’t, just didn’t feel like I was me. I just didn’t fit in. And I was, again, the troublemaker that kept asking why?

Simon: I really resonate with that story because throughout my public service career, I was very similar.

I always like asking, why, why can’t we do it like this? Why can’t we do like that? Some of it was my perfectionism tendencies, so I had to live with O C D and, and that really is driven by perfectionism. So, I always had a really high bar of myself, but also others around me as well. And, and by the end of my career I was just like, I’m just done asking why.

I, I’m sick of being in this box. I just want to do my own thing. And then coming out into my own business, which has only been open, since August.  I’ve been trying to break off all those shackles that have been holding me down for 15 years in terms of how do we do processes, how do we do this?

And I’m, I’m fine myself, bringing the public servant into my business. And I’m like, no, I don’t want that. I want to wear shorts to work every day. I want to wear t-shirts every day. I don’t want to wear like polos and slacks and, and be this thing that I’m not. And, so it’s really invigorating to step out and do your own thing.

 I wanted to touch on, you mentioned that you were managing people almost double your age or even older than you. And I know a lot of people who step into a leadership role really struggle with that type of thing, particularly where there’s some old school mindsets that you’ve got to try and break through.

 what was your challenges through that? how did you go navigating managing people that were older than you and more experienced and had been around the world a few more times than you?

Alice: Yeah, it is, it is a really difficult one because I think especially in the corporate world, there’s a lot of emphasis on longevity.

And my argument always was that I could, because I am so motivated and driven and like ferocious with my goals, I can probably achieve in two years what other people achieve in 10 in say, for example, in the corporate world, especially where there’s like so many red tapes and hoops and, and stuff to jump through and it’s like just because you’ve been in that position or in this industry or whatever for, for 10 years doesn’t necessarily mean anything because if you’ve just plotted along at, at that you are not necessarily innovated or done anything .

So, I had this real issue where I was like, your longevity doesn’t necessarily give you credibility. So, it, I’m not going to lie, it, it was difficult, but I was also really fortunate that I did have quite a good team around me. And I also had the benefit of tapping into their experience, the fact that they had worked in different industries and that they were older than me.

And it’s like, okay, I’m not, I’m not one of these leaders that says jump and I want you to say how high? I want you to question me. I want me to pitch an idea. And you go, eh, I’m not so sure about that one, Alice. Like, how about this? And I, I really encouraged my team to take that almost, I suppose, entrepreneurial flare of like innovation.

And one of our mottos was, do what’s right, not what’s easy. And the other motto that we had was, asked for forgiveness, not for permission. Cause I wanted my team to take initiative and not ask me. Like for permission to do stuff. I was like, go out there, make mistakes and we’ll clear it up together, kind of thing.

So, I really tried to instil that into the, into the team so that it didn’t actually matter that I had less experience or less years under my belt than them. Like we were kind of like learning together. And I think that’s how I ended up navigating it. But it, it, yeah, it can be difficult and it, for me as well, it wasn’t just the stigma of age, it was also the stigma of being a woman as well.

And I remember actually someone coming up to me once and saying, how, how did you, your team feel about being managed? Managed by a woman? And you’re like, sorry? Pardon? Like, what century are we in? This is mental. so, it, yeah, I, I’m not going to pretend it’s easy in the corporate world. I hat off to people that are doing it. But yeah, I think adopting the right leadership skills can definitely help.

Simon: Yeah. And so, what point in that career did you go, okay, I’m done with this. I’m going to go step out and do my own thing. Like what was that catalyst there?

Alice’s ‘lightbulb’ moment

Alice: Yeah, so it was 2016 and I was actually living with my nan that year because I was saving for, a house with my now ex-husband, but we were saving for a house.

so he was in the military, so we had the, the luxury that we didn’t have to, rent. He, he was wherever he was on deployment. And, I moved back into my hometown, like with, with my nan for a year to save up for, a house. And I love my nan, but I just, just wanted a weekend to myself. I went up to London and I did a two-day coaching diploma, introduction taster thing, and I, I’m not going to lie, Simon didn’t really know what coaching was.

And this is 2016, what? We’re going back like six years ago. I think it still was like fairly new in the UK. And yeah, so I, I just went on this like taster session. I’m so into my personal development anyway, so I just was like, oh, it’s really a great weekend. It’s a free training, and this is cheesy, but it was like a light bulb just went off.

It was like the penny dropped when, you know, when you’re just suddenly are like, this is it. This is it. And obviously for years I’ve been saying one day I have a business and I just wasn’t sure what it was. And I was like, I want to help people. I want a business that’s online. Hello. Like this is it. And I remember coming home so excited.

And my dad actually was with my, he was over from Cambodia. He was staying with my nan as well. So, me, my nan and dad and I remember coming home so excited so I straight away, I signed up the diploma, you know, spent thousands on the coaching diploma. And, yeah, just bit by bit full-time job, studying on the side, you know, you practice students, clients, et cetera, et cetera It was slow. but again, one day, one day, one day, one day, and there’s always something.

There’s, there was always something, you know, moving in house or this happening or this happening. And it wasn’t then until 2018, the back end. Right, right, right. At the end of, of the year. And I got sacked and I, I was the, the scapegoat for something that had gone wrong and, it was my head on the chopping block.

And I literally walked into a meeting and got sacked on the spot and was like, oh, okay. so, I had two decisions at this point and I was like, right, do I stick with the plan, which was to be director by 32 and then go into executive coaching? And all my friends who ironically don’t have a business, so I don’t know why I listened to them, all of them said, why don’t you start your business now?

and I was like, yeah, why don’t I, now in hindsight, probably not the best thing to do because I literally went cold Turkey. but then I do believe that life has a journey for you and everyone’s journeys unique. And that’s just the path that I took. So yeah, I probably got pushed, if I’m honest into it.

 Rather than taking the leap myself. But I’m so glad, because who knows, it could be 2022 and I could still be sitting there going one day, one day I’m going to start a business. Oh, covid not the right time one day. So yeah, it was, it was a bit of a slight burner and I got pushed in the end, but I got there in the end.

Simon: Yeah. I started my masters of social work, when I was still working full-time, so I was doing, working full-time, nine to five. then I was doing that part-time, studying part-time. We had the kids and all that type of stuff. And it got to a point, I finished the degree last year and I’m like, oh yeah, I really want to do this business cause like, I’m sick of working at public service.

 But then I kind of, I stood at the edge of the diving board just going, I’m not sure if this is the right time. Not sure, I need to get all these things in place before I do it. And it actually turned out that my second approach to burnout, which was at the start of this year, was the catalyst for me.

And I’m like, no, I’ve got to jump now because what I’m doing right now is not serving me. I was hurting, I was really in bad depression. I’m like, I’m making this leap. And it’s the best decision I’ve ever made was to, to make that leap of faith because I was going to do it slowly as well. I was going to do one day a week and then two days a week.

 But it just wasn’t, I just didn’t know how it was going to happen. And so, I had to make that leap of faith and, and. and it’s turned out like pretty, pretty okay at the moment. So, I mean, I, I’d like to be a bit further ahead in, terms of clients and all that type of stuff, but it’s also, it’ll happen when it happens as well.

Alice: I’ve kind of changed the mindset around having to have a hundred people calling me on the first day, which never happened, and I thought it would happen, but it never happened. but it’s slowly, the trickles are coming in and then it’s, it will turn into a big snowball eventually. Yeah,

it, it’ll will compound.

Alice’s Mental Health journey

Simon: That’s right now you’ve got a, a mental health journey that also connects in with the work that you do. So, I want to kind of take your talk through that first and then we’ll get into the coaching and stuff as well. Cause I’m really am interested in the, the time and energy management. Cause a lot of guys, and this is the Mindful Men podcast, a lot of guys out there struggle with time and energy management.

but also, I love to talk about mental health because, you know, guys do struggle to talk about mental health and, and so I love hearing different stories about mental health and, and how that impacts us. So, let’s go through your mental health journey as well. Can you talk us through how mental illness has shown up in your life?

And, and we, we touched base prior to this interview and, you know, things like depression, eating disorders, self-harming and all that type of stuff was things that have shown up in your life. Can you, can you walk us through this and what some of the drivers that maybe caused those types of, I guess, conditions for you?

Alice: Yeah, I think for me, like my mum and dad are amazing and we get on so, so well now and I really do believe like every, everything that ever happens to you shapes you to who you are today. So even though it was so painful and I wouldn’t want anyone to go through what I went through, I also know it’s made me the person I am today.

And you’ve got to put it into context that I’m 36 now. So, we are going back to the 80’s where, you know, my small town, there wasn’t that many mixed-race kids. we had quite a big Indian population, quite a big Sikh population, but not Orientals. So, my mom’s Japanese, I do not look English and I struggled with that, to be honest, like growing up and ask any girl, any teenage girl, they just want to look the same.

They just want to blend in and I just always, again, felt like I didn’t quite belong. So, whilst I never got bullied, I just felt like I didn’t quite fit. I couldn’t pinpoint it. And unfortunately, my mom’s English, it’s alright, but

she struggles in like a group setting. And also, it’s not, since now learning Japanese and teaching myself over the last few years when I was younger, I never spoke Japanese. I also now get, some of the barriers that we had because the language is so different. So, I’m very emotive, I’m very touchy-feely.

I am very tactile. The Japanese not so much and they don’t really have words for like, love or, I’m proud of you or things like that. So, I just felt very, very disconnected from my mum when I was growing up. She felt very disconnected to England. I felt very disconnected to her. I shunned the fact that I was half Japanese because I just wanted to look normal.

and then it just, it’s all interconnected. So then, because I didn’t look normal, I hated the way I look. I, I developed body dysmorphia. I literally was sitting in front of the mirror for hours crying my eyes out because I hated the way I looked. And that obviously then led to things like self-harm.

And it was like, right, well what can I control in my life? I can, I can control my calories or I can control like my weight. And also, I think particularly, it’s difficult I think for teenage girls anyway, and you think there’s happiness in the scale, so it’s like, right, well when I get down to this number, then I’ll be happy.

And so, you get down to that number and you’re like, oh, I’m still not happy. Oh, I must be a lower number. And before you know it, you’re like, you’re severely underweight. So, for me it was definitely a combination of stuff like, I wouldn’t necessarily, it was one thing that triggered off depression. I think it was just an accumulation of cultural differences, like not wanting to fit in, but not quite fitting in, trying to find control.

you know, feeling very anxious all the time, not having confidence as well. And just all these things cumulated into a point of just really severe depression from 15. And it wasn’t until I was probably in my early twenties, so almost a decade, that I then actually was like, I can’t keep living like this and I need to do, I need to do something about this.

And actually, then started seeking, seeking like, support for

it.

Simon: Yeah. So, in school, how was your friendship circles formed and how did you manage that? Because I remember I grew up in a similar, period. I’m a little bit older than you, but I grew up in the northern suburbs of Adelaide. Very rough. the school that I went to, pockets of welfare around, but there’s also a lot of trades and service. You know, people who were cleaners, people who in the manufacturing industry and all that type of stuff. And I remember being at school, at high school particularly, there was all the Italian and Greek kids, you know, culminated around what was known as the ‘WOG’ corner. And there’s a toilet block where they all used to hang out. And then you’d have groups that were like, they’re almost like skinheads and stuff like that. We’d call ’em the skinheads cause they’d all shave their heads, but they all kind of culminated into the same group. I was just with my mates; we didn’t have our own nicknames or anything like that. Like we were just A group of whoever and, yeah. But did you experience similar like that where like in the eighties and nineties, were you outcast and put into a different cultural group, or did your kind of just mix and that didn’t really happen at your school?

Alice: no, I’m, I’m really lucky. I’m really fortunate that it didn’t really happen at my school. Like I, the, a lot of the friends that I was in school with, I’m still friends with now. So, I, before we jumped on the podcast, I was telling you about how I’m going to South American in a couple of months. That’s with one of the girls I went to school with.

We’ve been friends for 20 years, like over 20 years. And so, I’m really, really fortunate that I was never bullied or I, I was never bullied for my looks or anything like that. It’s just that I didn’t feel like I fit in. And no one like took the piss or anything like that. But just little things like I remember somebody came, we had like sleepovers and somebody would look in the cupboard and they’d be like, all these weird food like octopus and seaweed and stuff like that, which nowadays is like trendy and everyone wants to eat sushi.

But back then it was like, eww what’s this? And you’re like, oh, and you just at that age as well, you just want to blend in. you just want to be normal and unfortunately, as well, my mum was going through the menopause at the same time, I’m hitting teenage hormones. It’s just, you know, girls clashing and it, it’s so, it was never like I was bullied or mistreated or anything, or there were cliques or anything like that. It just was this overwhelming feeling of like, I don’t belong and I don’t fit in.

Simon: Yeah, it’s a timely discussion because I was reading a book to my son, he’s five and a half and it was actually around the Chinese New Year, it was about a little girl in her family who they were coming up to Chinese New Year. I’m only saying this because this happened this week at his reading time. And, she wanted to invite her friend, but then she was also embarrassed about inviting a friend because she didn’t want the friend who was the white friend and she didn’t want the white friend to look at her and go, oh, this is weird that you’re doing Chinese New Year, and stuff like that. And so, I had a discussion with my son afterwards and I said, you know, what’s the book about? And he’s like, oh, the girl didn’t want her friend to come to the party. And I’m like, yeah, she didn’t, and why is that? And he’s like, I don’t know. And I’m like, all right, well maybe it’s because like she was from a Chinese background and her friend wasn’t, and it was a little bit different and she felt like it was really awkward around bridging that gap as well. And it’s just interesting that how you’re talking about this experience of growing up and internalizing this, and I think the girl in a story internalized all of this.

She thought that the, her friend would think badly of her, but a friend loved it. the books around, oh, this is amazing, I love Chinese New Year. We do it every year and stuff like that. And a lot of the time in the mental health space, we internalize everything. We, we think that the world is on our shoulders when in reality it’s not.

It’s often, far from it. I grew up in fear of a lot of people in high school particularly, and even after high school, but it was all internal that there were never any examples of bullying for me or anything like that. But I internalized a whole lot of hurt that I didn’t need to.

 And I think in the eighties and nineties, we never talked about mental health or mental illness and, and you know, particularly where I was from, we, I don’t even think it was in the dictionary. Really? and you, it’s before smartphones, it’s before social media. It was so like, you know, our understanding of the world was pretty much what the people around us told, told us about. And course nobody was talking about mental health or mental illness.

Alice: I definitely felt like it was my secret, and especially around like an eating disorder as well. Like, you know, I’m sensible. I knew what I was doing was wrong and I knew I was hurting myself and my body.

So, it, I was keeping the secret from everyone and it, it’s, yeah, I, I never wanted to tell anyone. I never wanted to talk about it, and that’s why it made it so hard, and probably why I had it for so long, is because how can I, how can I get help if I’m not admitting that there’s something wrong? And you’re to, so right.

Like we internalize it and then obviously that makes it a thousand times worse. And I’m so glad now that people are having conversations a about it and it’s, I think, Covid obviously was terrible, but I think the one thing that could come out of Covid was it was actually people saying like, how are you doing?

How, no, no. Like, how are you actually doing? And we started to be like, yeah, I’m not, I’m, I’m not coping or I’m finding this hard. And, and I think it’s given us a little bit more freedom to, to talk about that. But yeah, certainly in the eighties and nineties, like I cannot even imagine like, yeah, I, I kept it secret for like years and it was sort of just one day it just like burst out of me.

I don’t really know what the catalyst for that was, but yeah, it, it wasn’t talked about and, and it was just something that you tried to suck up and deal with yourself.

Opening up about mental health

Simon: Yeah. So, when you finally did start talking about it, what was that process?

Alice: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I don’t actually know what the catalyst was, but I just remember it was one day, it was the 10th of July, 2010, and I came downstairs, I sat my mum and dad down and I just said to them, I was like, I’m severely depressed and I’ve got an eating disorder.

And obviously they were a bit like because on the, on surface as well. So, what’s this now I’m probably like early twenties, like 22, 23 ish. And I, I’ve got a good job. I’ve travelled the world. I’m the first in my family to get a degree. Couple of months later I’m, I’m engaged. you know, it’s like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick by society standards.

 And then suddenly to come out with like, oh, actually I’m severely depressed got crippling eating disorder. it like shocked a lot of people. but that was what I needed to do to then go, right, let’s go to the doctors. Let’s get some help, let’s get some counselling. and then when you do start looking for the support, it is there, but I still do think, you know, we’re going back 15 years.

I still think it was harder then. I think there’s a lot more support and the services are a lot better now than they were back then, but there was stuff there. you just had to, to go out and get it, which was the hard

bit.

Simon: Yeah. And so, starting that journey, what’s some of the things that you’ve found along your recovery pathway that have really stood out to you as being something that you wish you knew back when you were younger?

Alice:

Oh my God, so much stuff. If I could go back to younger Alice, I think the first thing that I’d tell her is like, don’t be a perfectionist. like for me, that definitely was like crippling because I, and I think it probably did stem from like my issues with my mum. and I’m sure there’s like some psychological reason there.

Like, okay, well my mum doesn’t love me, so there must be something fundamentally wrong with me. So, if I’m better than my mum will love me and so then obviously this is fuelling and stemming the perfectionism. Boom. You throw an eating disorder in there as well, it just asking for trouble because then it’s like, ah, well my body isn’t quite perfect.

Well, whose body is, you know, so then they’re like pinching over like the tiniest little bit of fat and, you know, a mole or, or something ridiculous. And again, the perfectionism, but the problem with that is that it then fuels this all or nothing mindset. So, you, so when I was like trying to recover, for example, I might be good for a week, a month, something then would trigger me a change, something, anything.

And then that’s it. I’ll go back to my default, which I know from like, now that I understand how the brain works and how habits work, the majority of what we do is habitual. And to change ourselves, we have to change our neural pathways. Well, if your coping mechanism is to binge make yourself sick, then as soon as there’s a little bit of stress in your life, that’s what you’re going to do.

So, I thought, you know, haven’t made myself sick for a month. Oh, it must be all right. And then something would trigger me, boom, back to my default coping mechanism. And then I’m like, you, the perfectionist or, nothing. Mindset is like, well, I fucked that up, haven’t I? And, and now I’m back to my issues again.

So, it was a real up and down rollercoaster for me, because I just was swinging from one extreme to the other because I, was still having this like perfectionism all on, nothing grips over everything that I was doing. And I think if, yeah, now that I’ve got rid of that, that is definitely what’s like, helped, helped me, my recovery journey for sure.

Simon: Wonderful.

And do you talk about it with your parents now? or is it something that you kind of don’t really touch on?

Alice: Yeah, I’m really honest with it. And when I started the business, I remember having a really frank and quite difficult conversation with my dad because I was really passionate that I wanted to talk about my journey, and I wanted to talk about the difficulties I had growing up. Not because my parents aren’t amazing, but because it is just different. You know, I, there’s not that many, half Japanese kids growing up in Gravesham Kent in the eighties. So, I had a very different upbringing and I, I wanted to be honest around my mental health issues from day dot when I started the business.

But again, perfectionism, oh my God, you know, I’m meant to be a life coach. I’m meant to have everything sussed I’m meant to be helping others. I can’t possibly talk about my issues. And I, I was so scared and I, I just, I made the decision from the very beginning that if we keep hiding it, then we are never going to change anything.

And I can’t sit there and bitch about the fact that society doesn’t talk about it. And then not talk about my, my decade that I suffered. So, I, I kind of promised that I would always, always be so open about my mental health struggles and, and even like nowadays, you know, I, I’m really open on my social media.

My husband walked out on me unexpectedly in lockdown. That was fucking difficult to deal with. And I been so open about that and the struggles and the tears and, and all that kind of thing because, you know, sometimes life is tough. And I just think the more we talk about it and the more open we are, the better.

But it’s got to start with you as well. You, you’ve got to put your head above the parapet as well sometimes. So, yeah. I’m so super honest about it with my parents, with anyone that I meet, just friends, anyone, just cause I just, we need to break down that stigma.

Simon: Yeah, you’ve touched on something there around, you know, coaches not being able to talk about it like they taboo around talking about it.

 Which is the same in the therapy space. Like I’m a social worker, but I’m also a therapist and there’s a lot of social workers and, and mental health practitioners who are also in therapy themselves for various reasons. I mean, you’ve got the, the vicarious trauma of just listening to people’s mental health issues all day long, just in itself.

 But then also, you know, for my journey it’s 30 years of living with mental illness and, and trying to manage that and how do you navigate that? How do you show that you are strong enough to help somebody else with their mental health issues while you’re also going through your own issues as well?

 But I think there’s a real power in that and there’s a lot of strength and a lot of connection that like when I’m a go to find my own therapists, I’m often looking for people that shared lived experience of whatever I’m going through. So, for example, I’ve been through burnout and you’ve, I know you’ve been through burnout as well.

 . And, and so when I was going through that process of, of recovering from that, I wanted someone who had experienced burnout. I hunted them down because that was what I needed, someone who understood what I was talking about. so, you’ve really touched on something there that a lot of therapists and coaches, you know, grapple with.

And I think it’s great that you’re sharing it because that’s the kind of same reason I’m sharing my journey on the podcast as well, is that we can just normalize mental health discussions and say, hey, we’re all flawed. We’re not perfect. but we can all work through it together. There are ways of working through it and it’s so amazing through the podcast platform that we’ve got, is that we can hear different stories around the world, but often they’re very similar in the same kind of context, like, you know, eighties and nineties growing up. I understood as soon as you said that, I’m like, yeah, I get that. Cause that’s when I was growing up as well. I get that and other people are like, oh, when I found out about the O C D community through Instagram, I’m like, oh, I’d never even knew this existed.

I didn’t know there was so many other people with O C D and then I could like, tap into them and then ask them questions. And they did the same back and it was just fantastic. So, thank you for sharing your stories. It’s, so great for people to be vulnerable and I think as you said before, COVID really accelerated these types of discussions as well.

but I want to talk about what got you into time management, and I know your burnout story kind of comes out in this a little bit as well. So, what sparked your interest in time management? and talk us through this journey for you.

Time management

Alice: Yeah. Well, it’s definitely related to the, my mental health journey because, Again, so July, 2010 and I had this sudden like, ah, here’s my dirty secret.

Like hell, and I dunno if anyone, if you have read The Secret? And for me, that was kind of probably one of the turning points for me because this book highlighted to me that I had more control over my life than what I was given myself credit for. So, there I am, woe me, you know, me mum doesn’t speak English properly and woe me like, I look different.

And I suddenly had this moment of like, I can’t change my situation, but I, I can change how I think about it and I can change my thoughts. And if anyone’s read the Secret, you, they’ll know that like attracts like, and stuff like that. And what you think about, you bring about. And I suddenly had this thought of like, oh shit, am I bringing more depression to, to me, because I’m thinking these thoughts.

And that for me was like a bit of a wakeup call. Like I was like, Ooh, maybe I’m not powerless. And I think that’s something really important in the mental health space, is that fear. And you do feel powerless and you are like just going through it in, in your head all the time. And for me, that book made me think maybe I can do something.

And I didn’t know if I could at the time, but it just gave me that little glimmer of hope that I could change something. Maybe I was in a little bit more of control than I thought I was. And I realized that actually it wasn’t the circumstance that was the problem, it was me.

And I had this real victim mindset. And so anyway, from that point, I decided I was going to get myself better. and I, I really wanted to live life. So, as I said on the, on the outside, it probably looked amazing. You know, by 24 I’ve got like a good job and like I’m living in London with my besties. I’m engaged, I’ve travelled the world.

like life’s amazing. But then I’ve got this, like, dirty secret of like, you know, being depressed and getting over my eating disorder. But I, I knew that life could be amazing and I vowed to myself, I would never, ever waste time ever again. I was like, I’ve wasted a decade. That was kind of like the view, like I’ve wasted this decade already.

I do not want to waste any more time. And that was it. Obsession with time management. So, you know, reading articles, reading books, it was like, how do I maximize every single minute of my day? Because I, I was so annoyed at myself for wasting all this time either crying or just being unhappy. And that’s what sparked like my obsession with being productive and maximizing my time.

But like all things, you know, as I said, I’m very all or nothing. I took it to the extreme and then I became so obsessed with maximizing my time. I couldn’t switch off. And my ex-husband used to say to me, he’s like, you are in the room, but you’re not present. So yes, I might be here on Christmas, but my mind is somewhere else because I’m always thinking of a gazillion other things or I’m thinking of the next goal, or I’d get the promotion at work, celebrate for two seconds, and then I’m like, boom, what’s next?

And I was just really rushing to the end destination. And I remember my friend gave me a postcard once and it said, enjoy the journey, not just the destination. Something along those lines. And I was like, yeah, you’re right. I’m just always rushing to the next thing. Fast forward to 2019. I burnout. There’s only so much you can demand from your body.

And when you take, take, take, take, take, eventually you’re going to bankrupt it. And that’s what happened to me in the summer of 2019. I’d spent a decade of maximizing my time because I was so desperate to make up for that lost decade. But then now the problem is I couldn’t switch off. I couldn’t relax. I was always in that state of fight or flight.

You know, my sympathetic nervous systems were always like, so there’s no wonder that okay, I got rid of my depression. But now I was in, always in a chronic state of stress and anxiety. You know, I had the world’s horrendous IBS, insomnia, you know, all those kinds of things. And when I burn out, I was like, what?

Like I’m organized. I’m, I’m the person that organizes all the girls’ holidays. I’d never missed a deadline. I’m never late. Like how did burnout happen to me? Surely it happens to like disorganized people. And that again was my wake-up call. I was like, I’m not looking after me. And I suddenly had this like epiphany that actually, time management hasn’t got anything to do with time. It’s about you and it’s about your energy and I’ve bankrupted that I’ve, I’ve depleted myself and the body has just gone No more.

Simon: Yeah. The, word that kept coming to my mind, telling that part of the story was perfectionism again. Having everything perfect time, you know, and also hustle.

Alice: People pleasing.

Simon: People pleasing, yeah. And also hustle culture. I’ve noticed this coming out in the social media, like we always, and particularly in Covid, when we, everyone needed to get a side hustle because we all wanted to break free of the old jobs.

And, and so we were burning candles at multiple ends. I always talk about burnout as burning candles at multiple ends, and for far too long as well. And, and so yeah, that kept coming, that coming through as you’re telling that story. So, when you hit burnout, talk us through the next, 2, 3, 4 months.

 what did it look like for you? Because for me, it was sitting on the couch and barely being able to function.

Alice: Yeah. For me it was the weirdest thing. I, again, I dunno what drove it. I just remember waking up, it must have been about five, six o’clock in the morning. My, my ex-husband used to get up early to do CrossFit before work.

And I came downstairs and don’t ask me why I said these words, I just said to my ex-husband, I was like something bad’s going to happen. And he was like, what? And I’d fallen asleep a couple of times at, at the wheel, which I think was like a bit of a Mm, that’s not normal. And I just remember telling it to him and I was like, something bad could happen.

I, I’m either going to end up in hospital or I’m going to stab you. He was a bit like, what?? But I just had this overwhelming sense of doom, like, like something I, I can’t explain it to the weirdest thing. And I was like, am I hitting depression again? Like, what, what’s, what’s going on? And then I suddenly realized, and this is burnout, like my body is giving up on me, like my brain and my body are giving up on me.

And I felt like I’d lost Alice and I remember crying my eyes out because I was like, she’s gone and she’s never coming back. I just felt like broken and a shadow of myself, and I still didn’t admit it was burnout at this point because obviously I’m a perfectionist. So, it was like, I was like, I’ve nearly burned out, but not quiet.

No, it was, it was full on burnout. Problem with that is I’d, I’d obviously got sacked at the back end of 2018. gone to start the business, so I had no income. And now I find myself trying to start a business from scratch, burned out, and I was like, right, this is not good. Also combine that, the fact that I had seven weddings in 12 months three, of which I was bridesmaid for, for my best friends in six months.

 Like six months of like hardcore partying and cake tasting and shit like that. And so, in an ideal world, what I could have done is just tapped out a life and said I need to recover.

And I think I would’ve recovered a lot quicker. But I also made that difficult decision of like, will I get this experience again of like being bridesmaids from my best friends and, and all that kind of thing. And I think it was really difficult for others as well, because I am so energetic and no one saw the burnout really coming.

And I think because I’m so good at surviving on no sleep, and I looked, I looked all right, I didn’t look, I didn’t look unhealthy. I’ve never even had a cold. So, to them, for me to let me go, I’ve burned out. People are like, yeah, you’re just tired. And I remember on one Hen do, me saying, can I share a room with the pregnant ladies because I’ve burned out and I want to be in bed by like 10.

And everyone was like, cause I’m like a notorious party girl. And they were like, yeah, it didn’t happen. and I ended up getting like, put in the party room. But things like that, people didn’t know how to deal with it because it just literally came out nowhere for some people. So, what did my burnout look like?

Yeah, I, I mean I would, I should have maybe just completely monged on the sofa and actually recovered properly. But again, the perfectionist in me got, got a man up, got to push on, got, got to do these weddings, et cetera. And then it got to the point where obviously I was panicking about money. Am I going to pay my mortgage, mortgage is in London, not cheap, and I ended up taking a contract job as well, just a part-time contract, like three, four months or something. cause there, they’re like really well paid just so that I could pay for these bloody weddings and pay my mortgage. So, my recovery journey was slow. It was so slow because I was trying to come to terms with the fact that I burnt out in the first place.

Cause how dare I burn out? I’m a perfectionist. That’s not what I do. And other people having to deal with it, plus keeping life going, but also trying to like learn to sleep. And I suddenly realized one of my big problems was I hadn’t slept properly for 15 years and I realized I was averaging five hours sleep a night.

And so, I read all these books about sleep and I had to learn how to sleep because I, I didn’t have a habit of it. And it just, it, yeah, it was such a slow process to recovering. yeah.

Simon: Yeah. it can take a long time. And the mental health space, yeah, recovery can be short or it can be a long term.

And, and I think we often get caught up in comparison and like other people did it in one month or two months, or I heard once someone said, I, I went on antidepressants two months and now I’m fine. I’m like, wow, I wish that happened for me. I’ve been 10 years and all that type of stuff. But yeah, it, it does take time sometimes.

Alice: I

think everyone’s symptoms are different as well. I think mine weren’t as physical and mine was more mental. Mine was this feeling that I had lost Alice and she was gone and she was never coming back. And that, that for me was harder than sleeping that was just awful. I just thought I was never going to get me.

Finding the balance with time and energy management

Simon: Yeah,

so, let’s talk about how you got yourself back and, how it connects with, your coaching business as well, and particularly time management, how you now look at time management, but also energy management as well and manage. talk us through that journey and, what you do through your business.

Alice: Yeah. Well, this is why when I then finally got set up the business, so I’ve, I’ve now recovered. It’s January, 2020 and I’m like, right round two, let’s, let’s start this business. And I was like, right, it’s got to be about time management cause that’s what I’m obsessed with. But I was like, but all the experiences that I’ve gone through, actually, I’ve realized that time is not actually about time.

Like time is about you, it’s about your mindset, it’s about your perception, it’s about your energy. And I was like, that’s what I need to encapsulate. That’s what I need to help people with. And that’s how I kind of came to like my niche, I suppose, of what I’m like now known for is that time isn’t about time.

It’s actually about your energy. And one of the big things that I teach people is time management, but don’t just see timers like the clock ticking past, see it as your energy. So, the fact that, you know, we have things called chronotypes. So, some people are morning people, some people, evening people, et cetera.

You know, work with that. Don’t just push on through the tired, take a break., you know, don’t just gun it for a goal and then crash and burn. Create some consistency in your life. And for me, again, perfectionism, all or nothing, like I had to really get away from that so that it was more about sustainability, momentum, consistency.

and that’s, that’s what energy management is about, it’s about using your time in a way that works for you and your energy rather than just being a slave to the clock or a slave to the to-do

list.

Simon: Yeah. And do you have a system that you put in place with people that you work with? Like do they have a calendar that they, how do they block time or how do they actually physically do it in say, a business perspective?

Alice: Yeah, so this is the difficult thing with energy management, I think it’s really easy with time management or easier to say, this is the system, this is what you follow, this is how you’re doing it. It’s very systems, it’s very structured, which is great. I’m all for systems and structures. Strategy and planning is my superpower.

However, we are all different. My life, Simon looks so different from yours. So how on earth can I come in and say, this is a system that you need because it works for me and my business. And that’s the difficulty of it, difficulty with energy management, is that it is so bespoke and tailored. And I think this is why coaching around it is so important.

Cause you need to have that awareness. So, for example, today I was having a catch up with one of the ladies on my, energy management program at the moment, we’re only three weeks in, but because she’s now started to have that awareness of what she eats, different activities, the weather you know, all these things are affecting her energy.

She we’re only in week three and she’s already started tailoring and tweaking her what her week looks like. And people are started commenting already, oh my god, you’ve got so much more energy. Like, you’ve seemed so much more cheerful, et cetera. And it’s like, yeah, because you’ve got that awareness and now, you’re starting to tweak it and make it work for you.

But what she’s doing looks completely different from what I’m doing. But it’s, it’s working for her. And, and I think that is a difficult thing. There is no one system, there is no, like one size fits all. The key thing is to understand what affects your energy and then having that awareness to create your own systems and structures rather than kind of like off the shelf thing.

Simon: I love that. It’s helping people develop that insight into their daily routine essentially. and, and it’s so useful for not just for business, but also for things like mental health, like what we’ve been talking about. It’s structuring your day and going, okay, I really do need to exercise in the morning because if I don’t do that, or I need to meditate at this point of the day, or I need to journal or I need to, sleep, as you said before, sleep I grew up around people that used to always say, you only need seven hours of sleep or eight hours of sleep a night. But I’m like, no, I’m, I’m like the double-digit guy, like 10 hours would be fantastic for me and I, and then I could be half human as well.

So, yeah, sleep’s really, over the years, I recognize even it’s hard when we’ve got two kids under six cause they’re up during the nighttime. But I, those nights when I do get double digits, I’m feeling amazing the next day. cause I can’t do the 5, 6, 7 hours a night. Like, I just am a shell of a person the next day and I really feel it as well.

 what’s some of the trends that you’re seeing with people coming into to work with you? are they new business owners? are they even business owners? Are they doing this for other purposes as well? or are they, seasoned executives? What’s some of the trends of people that work with you?

Alice: Yeah, so as I said, when I first started coaching, I thought I was going to go into executive coaching because my background was, was corporate. And I’ve now found myself in a space of being an expert in energy and time management for business owners.

Stressed out, pushed for time, people generally are your business owners, and I think that’s why I’ve attracted that market to me. So yeah, predominantly, I’d say probably 90% of my clients are, are business owners. And they’re business owners that are passionate about what they do. They love what they do, they, they’re so good at what they do, but they also want a life.

They also want hobbies. They also want to travel. They also want to spend time with their friends or just have a bit more energy. And again, I think in the eighties, nineties that we grew up in, it was that hustle and grind. Get up at five, you know, sleep when you’re dead kind of culture. And I think now we are starting to wake up to the fact that that just brings burnout.

and my clients are the ones that want the balance. They’re the ones that want the success and the finance that comes with business, but also, they want hobbies in downtime and to be able to like, get their nails done on a Thursday afternoon or whatever it might be. so that’s, that’s generally who I’m helping.

Working with Alice

Simon: Yeah. do you have many males or is it just females? do you work with anyone specifically?

Alice: I

don’t work with a specific, industry or business owner like that, but I’ve got to confess the majority of my clients are women. And I just think that is because men generally, and I’m making a huge generalization here, so sorry, guys generally aren’t as open to say, hey, can I have a little bit of help here?

so yeah, out of the two and a half years I’ve been coaching, I’ve only had one, one male, one to one client.

Simon: Yeah. And I think this is a great discussion the way we’ve had this discussion and the reason I wanted you to come onto Mindful Podcast was to, to show guys that we can talk about this stuff and that we have similar journeys from a mental health perspective.

Like we’ve had mental illness in our lives and we’ve had burnout in our lives. We’ve had corporate careers, and have experienced very similar things and now like I’m started my business and I’m looking at do I need a business coach, someone to keep me on track, someone to, keep the kindle on, on the flames that I’ve got burning.

cause I’m really passionate about what I’m doing, but I’m feeling a little bit lost at the moment and my wife’s like, Simon, you need a business coach. Go find a business coach. and so, I think this is a great discussion to have and, and to show guys, maybe there’s a guy listening, going, I love Alice’s vibe.

You know, someone who’s my age, someone who’s not, you know, 60 and approaching early retirement and all that type of stuff, which is often what you see, when you look up Google or whatever, that’s what I’ve found anyway. It’s struggling to find young, energetic people who have also got a bucket load of lived experience as well. So, fingers crossed, yeah, we inspire some guys out there to start thinking about this stuff and going, it’s okay to be not okay, but also, it’s okay to. ask for help, whether it’s mental health, but also business as well.

Alice: oh my God, absolutely.

And the way that I see it as well is like if you were an athlete and you wanted to be at top of your game, you’d get a PT, you’d get a nutritionist, you’d get a sports coach because you have a, you have to have a success team around you. And it’s not about, ugh, I’m struggling, it’s about, hang on a minute, I want to be the best that I can be.

So gimme the, gimme the support, whatever I can get. And you know, I’ve got business coaches, I’ve got mentors, I’ve, I’ve got mastermind groups and stuff like that. Cause I’m like, yeah, why would I not tap into other people’s resources?? It’s like, it’s not cause I’m struggling, it’s because I want to like excel and do the best that I can.

Simon: Yeah, I love that. And, I had another podcasts episode with Bart Walsh. He talked to that exact same thing. So, he’s the head coach of Jetts Fitness Australia. So, gyms across Australia, I think even the Asia-Pacific as well. And he said the same, he said like, you kind of go through your youth and you’ve got those mentors, your parents, your teachers, if you’re doing sports, they’re your coaches as well. But then you kind of come into an adult and you don’t really have that. Your kind of left to your own. You’re like, you’re meant to have it all figured out. But he said, you just need coaches, like you said, people in your life that can coach you through different things.

And business is one of them. And mental health is one of them. And, relationships are one of them. Parenting and all those types of things, you know, just tap into the resources. There are so many free resources out there initially. And then you can also get paid ones as well, like yourself, but Alice, I really enjoyed this conversation.

 I probably should let you go because I’ve got so many business questions I’d need to ask, but I’m not going to do that here, but a couple more things and I’ll let you go. So, how can people find your, like your website and your socials?

Alice: Yeah, so, everything is just under my name. It’s super simple, simple, so you can just find me at alicedartnell.com.

Not going to lie, guys. Not the best website. but I’m generally hanging out on Instagram. I’m a visual girl. also, I’m severely dyslexic as well, so I’m all about the images and the images and the, the videos rather than the text stuff. so yeah, come find me on Instagram. Can’t say hi, it’s just alice_dartnell.

I do hang out on LinkedIn a little bit as well, so, if you’re looking for a more profess vibe, you will find me there. But don’t go on there too, too often. But yeah, no, feel free to come say hi on socials, if you go to my website as well, you can do things like, connect with me like on my newsletter, which goes out every Friday with tidbits and top tips around your time management, energy management.

But yeah, I’d, I’d love connecting with people when, so if you, if anything I’ve said today has resonated, you know, come say hello, drop me a DM and ask me a question. Ask me for a tip or whatever. I’m more than happy. More than happy to

connect.

Simon: Awesome. And I, we’ll put the links in the show notes so people can just easily click on them if they’re listening to this or watching this on YouTube.

and the last question I always like to ask my guests is to plug something that makes you feel good. So, it doesn’t have to be anything that we’ve talked about in terms of mental health or business, just something that’s giving you a bit of a pep in your walk. and in your talk as well.

Alice’s Recommendation

Alice: Do you know what I’m going to choose music because I just find that if you are having a bit of a like Debbie downer day and you like, and you whack on a good tune and you’re like, like, so for me that is, yeah. That, that for me, just putting on a good song that just has me smiling and dancing around the kitchen. Yeah. That, that, that’s always my thing to make me feel good. Yeah. It’s just small things in life, isn’t it? It’s always the small things.

Simon: And what are

you

listening to at the moment?

Alice: not going to lie, before we jumped on this podcast, I was listening to a bit of old school Madonna, immaculate Collection, and a bit of Michael Jackson,

Simon: Cool Old school. I love it.

Alice: Thanks so much for joining me. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. You bring so much energy and wisdom and, vulnerability at the same time.

Simon: So, thanks so much for coming on the Mindful Men Podcast.

Alice: Thank you so much for having me. I’ve loved it. Thank you.