Simon Rinne: G’day day guys, and welcome to another episode of the Mindful Men Podcast. I’m your host, Simon Rinne, and today we’re talking about men’s mental health and alcohol addiction. And this week’s episode coincides with Men’s Health Week, which is June’s 12th to 18. And this year’s theme is Healthy Habits.

So we’re gonna be talking about healthy habits today as well. But joining me for today’s discussion, I’ve got Simon Bartz from Adelaide, South Australia. How you going, Simon? 

Simon Bartz: Very well, thanks Simon. Very well. Great to be here. 

Simon Rinne: It is a little bit weird talking to another Simon, and every time I talk to another Simon, there’s not many of us that I come across, but I get my tongue twisted and I end up calling them something else, so I’ll try to keep it on the pathway.

But mate, you’re a husband, you’re a father of twins, who are eight years old, so. Hats off to you there. We’ll talk a bit about dadding as well. But you’re also a counselor and owner of Elevate Counseling, which focuses on men’s mental health, addictions, grief and loss. So welcome to the show.

Simon Bartz: Thank you. Thank you very much. 

Father of twins

Simon Rinne: Now, I love talking to dads. I’m a dad myself. and we just mentioned that you’re a dad of twins. So first of all, how are you still standing? And second of all, what does it mean to you to be a dad? Tell us a bit about Dad’s life for you. 

Simon Bartz: Well, how I’m still standing I think really comes down to having an amazing wife and mother, and also support from her parents as well, you know, and you really need that support around you, I think.

And but it’s funny when I’m talking about twins, people say, what’s it like? And I’m like, well, it’s normal. I don’t know what it’s like to have one or three or, you know, so it is a handful. But yeah, Being a dad is amazing. It’s incredible. We, we actually, and this might be a segue, but we actually had a long battle trying to fall pregnant.

 We went through many, many rounds of I V F, ten to be exact, and they all failed. And we ended up going through egg donation ironically through South Africa and Cape Town. And yeah, and we just thought that was our last effort. we were at our end emotionally, financially, and everything.

 and so this was our last effort to give it a crack and boy did it work. But I love it. It’s almost hard to put in words. I think I’m, I’m sure you probably find the similar thing, Simon. It’s just every exhilaration under the sum. But as my mother-in-law put it once as a parent you always feel guilty and you always worry.

And that has a massive part of it as well, you know? I think it’s just amazing to see little people who have come from you and you see all of your history as a child through them as well, but they’ve got their own personalities of course. But yeah, it’s a hard slog, but it’s so rewarding and, and just surprises me continuously each and every day.

It’s amazing. Yeah. 

Simon Rinne: Yeah. I remember when my son came out, like he’s the oldest, in our household, and, and I had never really been around bubs before or, or little kids. But my wife had, she had a big family, so lots of babies were always in the family, just, it was natural to her.

But the first four or five days she had an emergency caesar with Gussie and she was in bed. So I was up and at it and. absolutely. Had no idea and I was freaking out and it was the biggest shock to my system. And that was just with one. That first few, I guess, few nights, few weeks, few months, trying to navigate two, how did that go for you? 

Simon Bartz: We went through all sorts of thoughts and emotions and feelings and uncertainties. It’s funny cuz people say you can’t really remember them and they’re right.

 It was just a blur of uncertainty and you know, how do we know when they’re hungry? How do we know when they’re angry or frustrated or sad or upset? Cuz you can’t talk to them, of course. And you, you have all these worries building up in your head and then I think you find, or we found that, You already have the answers, really.

It’s very organic and things just happen and flow. But I think doing everything in twos is a big thing as well. And you know, other worries. Like we were, we were concerned about sleeping. What if one sleeps well and the other one doesn’t and wakes the other one up? And maybe it was just fortuitous, but lucky we had we had really good sleepers in the end, and so that wasn’t a problem.

But I actually had someone ask me once, is there some sort of handbook? And I thought they were joking at first, but they were being serious. I’m like, no, mate, you’ve gotta write your own. And boy, it’s the steepest learning curve ever, isn’t it really? 

Simon Rinne: Yeah, absolutely. And, and it’s interesting you say that handbook or, or the guide trying to guide you through parenting. Did you notice with twins? Cause like when we had our daughter Pippa, it was a lot easier.

I mean, she came with a whole bunch of different things. So Gussy was a terrible sleeper. Whereas Pip’s has a lot of allergies. So we were adapting from no sleep to all of a sudden food allergies and trying to deal with that. Gussy is fortunately a good sleeper now. Yeah. But he’s six. With twins.

Like, were they Very similar or they were very different and now they’re eight. What’s their personality like as twins? 

Simon Bartz: Very different. Which is good. I think it’s, it probably should be that way really, cuz we’re individuals, you know? But yeah, I guess in the early, early days, you know, it’s a bit hard to tell, I suppose.

We just had twin bassinets and they were left and right. We had them sleeping and then we’d wheel them off. But as they’re getting older now I, I really. I can see a lot of sensitivity. My son’s really sensitive and he takes things on board and he’s a bigger analyzer than an eight year old can do, which is probably quite a lot, but he’s very considerate, whereas my daughter is not.

She would just go, she’ll just do things and then ask later, or not even ask later. She doesn’t really care. I mean that as lovingly and respectfully as possible, but it’s interesting. I think they probably feed off each other in those ways. You know, those differences can sort of create that unification in a way.

My son always proclaims that he, he doesn’t like his sister and wishes he had another brother and all that kind of stuff, but I’ll tell you, he’s as reliant on as her as you can ever get because as soon as she’s not in the picture, he’s looking around, you know? So maybe there’s that connectivity there. I dunno. 

Simon Rinne: It’s funny how they feed off each other like that. Cuz like our daughter. She will go up and she will purposely try to get my son into trouble. She will do something just to yeah, just to prod the bear and pretty quickly he’ll snap, but at the same time, when they’re not together, I think, yeah, they do look for each other and ours are three years apart. Yours are the same age. How do you navigate birthday parties for twins who are a boy and a girl?

Simon Bartz: Well we find neutral party ideas, you know, basically I think they feel a bit ripped off that they have to share their birthday.

They were born very close to my wife’s birthday and she was not having that at all, basically. Hold on, hold on. But I think my daughter is not someone, she’s not a girl who likes dolls or you know what you would probably. Or what has been considered stereotypically what a girl will play with a bit of a tomboy in a way.

So that kind of helps, I suppose, in terms of birthdays, but we just have big combined birthdays , and they just run riot basically. I think we might find that, you know, as they get older they’ll want separate birthdays and that’s understandable as well.

That’s a bridge we’ll cross, I guess, when and if we come to it, I suppose. But yeah, they do have some similar interests, which helps. But then they’ve got their own individuality as well. We’re even considering maybe doing every alternate birthday, you’re gonna have to have a party every year.

Simon Rinne: We’re already talking about that at the moment as well, cuz it, it gets full on like this year. Like my son, he’s in prep and No, he is in year one now. Sorry, gussy. You’ve just taken a year off your life. But, my daughter’s coming up to kindy next year as well and all of a sudden we are just going to birthday parties every second weekend and we are like, how do we stop this?

And maybe the alternative birthdays might be an option for all of us 

Simon Bartz: Our fridge at one stage was just all invitations and we’re thinking, my God, this is this social life. We’ve gotta get a bloody PA or something for.

Simon Rinne: I can totally feel that. Like you’re just going from sports to birthday parties to something else at the same weekend. Yeah. But we could talk about fatherhood all day. I love talking about fatherhood and actually I might get you back for an episode on IVF cause I think that’ll be a really cool discussion to have.

Introduction to alcohol

Simon Rinne: But let’s get into mental health and alcohol addiction as well. So I guess, paint the picture for us, like, did you grow up in Adelaide or you from somewhere else? What was it like for you growing up and then I guess what were the key factors that kind of introduced alcohol into your life and then, you know, led towards addiction? Can you share that story? 

Simon Bartz: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I grew up in Adelaide. My mom and my father split up when I was really young. But I was lucky enough for them. They had a really good friendship. They just couldn’t live with each other, and so I never really saw any negativity in that regard.

You know, there were never any , mandated meetings at McDonald’s to hand over the child or anything like that. It was, it was really good. So I had a great upbringing. My mother was strict, but fair, you know. And I, I’m half German, so my father’s side is German, so my grandparents, I spent a lot of time with them, like a lot of time.

And they were I couldn’t even put into words what they meant to me, you know, it was just such a source of comfort and they just adored me and I adored them. So I spent a lot of time with them during the school holidays. They had a pool, so I was lucky enough to just live there during the holidays.

But From a young age my grandfather was always drinking. I mean, I think many people do. That’s the thing. It’s just saturated in this society. And I remember when I was young, sitting at my grandparents’ house, I’d stay over at night, for example, and he’d have a table next to him and he’d have a beer, a red wine, and a Cinzano and something else.

So you’d have them all racked up. And I, I never thought anything about it really. I didn’t even click. But he just sort of saw his way through them each night basically. I never saw him drunk. Probably because he was so seasoned with it that it didn’t affect him. But so, there was a bit of, when I was younger, you know, you want a beer, a light beer, and it was sort of, I guess it comes down to glorifying in a way.

It’s almost like a rite of passage in some respects, which is quite crazy when you think about it. But we could probably delve on that later on. But so really growing up, I mean, it was around me, but it never was negatively impacting me or it never became an obsession or anything. I think when I started to get older for my 18th birthday, you have a bottle of wine or a crack of beer, even though you already have before, but you didn’t necessarily tell your parents.

And so that was sort of, it was societal, it was really, that’s what people did. And that’s still the view today. This is what people do. People drink to commiserate, to celebrate, because there’s a cloud in the sky because you’ve won something, you’ve lost something, you know, and it’s I guess what you, what you would call like normal, I suppose, go to the pub and have drinks with mates and, and whatever. But I was not aware of how subliminally holding and, and luring it is, to the point where 

If you don’t drink, people are shocked

Simon Bartz: I heard a saying where alcohol is the only drug that if you don’t take it, people are genuinely shocked.

 If you were sitting there shooting up heroin and people would be disgusted going like, God, what are you doing? But people are genuinely surprised or shocked. What’s wrong with you? Why don’t you drink? The good one is, I don’t trust people who don’t drink. I don’t get that. So yeah, going back to that, it was really just normal.

First noticing my drinking problem 

Simon Bartz: And then I really only think I had a problem with it. It sort of crept up and crept up, you know? In later years, I suppose I, ironically, when I was through my twenties, mid twenties to thirties or so, I was with a partner then and she had clinical depression and she turned into drinking.

And so I saw that and. Thinking about it now. It’s really ironic how I, I saw that happen and even noticed little things about her facial features when she was drunk and it was every night and was, pretty much, a cask of white wine every day and a half, pretty much. And so I had an exposure to what it can do, and I didn’t quite still understand it then, you know, I thought, well, like many people, I think people are so ignorant to the potential power it can have over you.

And then moving forward, when I met my now wife and even before we had children, I had a bit of bad luck with jobs. I was made redundant three times in a row which didn’t help anything. I thought I was on a TV show at one stage. I thought I was being punked or something .

You know, back in those days we would party on with friends and I’d go to get some wine and I’d be nervous with holding a box of five bottles of red between the two of us thinking, will that be enough? Should be all right. I look back on that. That’s insane. It’s crazy. And then I think it, it sort of insidiously snuck up and it started to take over a bit more and more. I’m probably fast forwarding here, but yeah, so I suppose in the earlier years, you know, it was just normal.

But I, I had been around being exposed to it, but it wasn’t, I think until I guess you have to manage problems. You have to manage emotions, you have to manage what’s happening around you. And it’s very easy to use that as a coping tool .

Simon Rinne: You mentioned a few things that I wanna touch back on.

It’s around the normalization of alcohol in our society. And I remember, I grew up in the northern suburbs of Adelaide, so working class, low socioeconomics. Where did you grow up? Actually, in comparison? Cause I’m interested to know the dynamics so I grew up in Salisbury, Elizabeth. Parafield Gardens. That was my hunting ground. Whereabouts were you growing up? 

Simon Bartz: I grew up in Millswood, so near Clarence Park around that area there. So yeah. Lovely area. Lower Millswood, my mum used to say we’re in Lower Millswood just to correct. We’re not in the upper echelon. 

Our context shapes our behaviour

Simon Rinne: That’s important for context because where we hang out and where we grow up, it influences our decisions as well.

And so, I grew up in a household with three brothers and a dad, a very testosterone driven household and, and we played a lot of football. So football was our thing. and then in the summer it was athletics. And I remember, you know, we’d watch the TV and you’d see all the, like the footy show and particularly the end of the year when they have all the awards nights and all the big footy players that you look up to during the year.

Absolutely. You know, sloshed off their faces. Yeah. On national tv. , and everyone’s laughing. And, so that starts to normalize it. And then because we’re at a footy club, you know, end of season parties and camps and all that, where alcohol’s involved as well. That normalizes as well.

And then it comes to school. We do the same thing after school. And, whoever can grow a beard, for example, I could never grow a beard, but my mate could grow a beard. So all of a sudden a 16 year old would look, 18 year old and back in the day, you could just walk through the drive through, grab a carton of beer.

And it’s interesting what you were saying around even just walking around with a box of wine thinking, is this gonna be enough? That was the thought that was going through our heads and my mind particularly was like, I’ve got a carton, a beer, or maybe two cartons, if we’re having a big party, is that gonna be enough?

So you go again and you don’t wanna run out because running out would be the end of the world. Yeah. You know? Cause all of a sudden you’ve gotta be sober. And then I also remember things like on tv, like the David Boon thing where it was, flying across I think it was to the Ashes and he drank all those beers and everyone glorified it.

And, and no one speaks badly of it. And then you’ve got Bob Hawke, sculling the beer, and everyone loves that. Absolutely. And then even like wrestling, so me and my little brother used to love WWE wrestling. And my favorite wrestler was Stone Cold who would come out with some beers and smash beers around and scull them and all that.

So this is glorification and almost celebration, as you say, of alcohol. And it’s, it’s on the footy guernsey, or it’s in the advertising. It’s in the media. And depending on who it is, depends on if it’s glorified more or if it’s, you know, seen as a bad thing. So I can understand that. That’s the pull in for a lot of guys. I’m in my eighties and nineties, child. And so this was in the northern suburbs of Adelaide. This was. all, that was around me. How was it like in your suburb and, and with your mates and stuff like that? Like think about school for example, when you started drinking with your mates. Like what was the culture like with you and your mates? 

Simon Bartz: Well, at school I guess you’re sort of just starting out I suppose. So you’re testing the waters in a way. But we seem to have a local, amazingly we developed a local, which was right near our school and it wasn’t so much about linking it to school, it was more about that.

We found the Ed hotel in Mitcham and we went there every Tuesday. And you know, it’s funny, going back cuz when I grew up with my mom, she didn’t drink alcohol cuz her parents were alcoholics and they fought so badly a lot of the time, but especially at Christmas. So she rebelled against that.

And she didn’t like it either. So, It’s funny, I didn’t grow up with it constantly around me at home, but, you know, touching on your point of it being normalized and so yeah, it, it, it’s almost like a jovial thing. It’s almost like, again, like an, an achievement to start drinking. You know, now you’re a real person, now you’re here, you know, well, where’s here?

 But you don’t think about those things at the beginning when you’re younger as well. I didn’t even grow up in a massive drinking culture within my friends. You know, we dabbled in weed, of course, and that was what it was, I suppose back then.

But yeah, it’s surprising and it probably is a note as to how it can grab hold of you in whatever context that may be. And whenever as well. You know, so you don’t necessarily have to be saturated. Even though we are to, I guess eventually fall to its lure and perceived benefit, I suppose. Yeah. I guess that’s what maybe we are not looking for directly, but it is to fit in, is to be inclusive. It’s to be having a beer with your mates, you know, it’s so entrenched.

 It’s an Australian culture thing. To go against, it sort of feels like, you know, am I bucking against being a typical Australian? But I don’t know. I don’t think I am. I think it was just so entrenched, but yeah it wasn’t a massive thing like my friends, I don’t remember them being smashed all the time. When we did it, we. Did it hard. And I think a lot of people drink to get drunk, let’s be honest. Even though we might not wanna say we do. I mean, it’s what happens when you drink. So, you know, and that’s certainly a thing that I think people find attractive at first.

Simon Rinne: Yeah. I remember the first few parties or a few years of partying, it was like, how drunk did someone get at the party? And everyone would talk about and look forward to the next time, can you replicate this amazing night that you had? Or did you have too much? And you spew everywhere and all that.

Recognising alcohol issues

Simon Rinne: Everyone’s got these stories growing up as well. But then what I found is, and you know, I’ve struggled with the alcohol for a long time and, and I talk about this quite a lot on the podcast around, I went from it just feeling good to helping me just feel normal and slow down my mind. Cause I’ve got the racing mind with my obsessive compulsive disorder.

Yeah. But then it also turned into an anxiety reducer. So I was able to start socializing and we often used to call it Dutch courage. I’m not sure where that comes from, but you’d have drinks just to feel like you can talk and socialize. And then, for those of us that weren’t naturally blessed on the dance floor and we’d go clubbing, you’d have a few drinks and you’d loosen up and, and that’s where I did my best work.

But then as you get older I think you start to reflect a little bit more. And then there’s little light bulb moments come on. You start to go, what am I actually doing this for? And then you start making excuses, like you said, like there’s a cloud in the sky.

Or I’ve had a stressful day at work. Let’s just pop open a bottle of wine or crack a few beers open, even though it’s on a Tuesday or a Wednesday. It’s not a weekend thing anymore like it used to be. It’s now a during the week thing and then it’s a day thing and, and so forth. And you mentioned before you had three job losses in a row.

 Is that the time when things started to ramp up or was it a bit before that? Bit after that? Yeah. When did you start to actually notice Ooh, something’s not quite right here. I think it might have a problem. 

Simon Bartz: I think it was, well, I know it was a problem at that time. And I think the redundancies didn’t help that at all.

And I think it certainly entrenched me into a whole world of no self-esteem, wondering what’s happening. Even down to wondering, you know, they said it is not you, it’s the business, thinking, well, is that right? Is it me? And so just this uncertainty and doubt and so it was looking back, you know, I mean I used to almost laugh at the fact that my backseat, the pouches in the backseat of the passenger seat in the car, it used to get full with Bottles of Coopers in there, right?

Cause I’d have roadies, so it was entrenched and I used to find that amusing in a way. Looking back at it now, it’s horrific. But so I think it was just, it was a big part of my life and without wanting to, it became a bigger part of my life. But it certainly didn’t accelerate.

Like I can’t really pinpoint the time when it actually went up to the next level. And, I mean, full on the next level where it dictates your whole life. You know, you’re living in this bubble and you are the only, your only focus is orientating your day around getting to the next source of a drink, even going out for drinks in the city, say for example on a Saturday night, you know, you are already working out.

Well, how am I gonna get some in beforehand? How will I get there? How will I get home? And I guess when we had troubles with conceiving, that was sort of the beginning of when the redundancies happened, but they sort of were in one big ball in a way.

Alcohol dictated my life

Simon Bartz: But it was really masking, that’s what I was doing. Looking back on it now, I was really just trying to ignore feelings, ignore emotions, ignore, push it away, push it away. It can’t be happening to me. I was so bloody and stubborn about it. But then when, it escalated to hiding it and turning from beers to vodka because it’s quicker than when it was really like, okay.

This is not good. And it still took me a time, even when that began to, to realize it. But it was, basically dictating my whole life. When it’s at the stage where you are having a breakfast, beer to cope, you mentioned before about getting to zero and that’s a big thing.

You know, when you have to wake in the morning, you have to do so much to get to baseline. That’s not good. That’s a horrible place to be in. 

Simon Rinne: Did anyone ever say anything to you? Like, do they think you drink too much or like did those conversations happen? 

Simon Bartz: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And looking back, it happened quite often.

I think I might have purposely blocked them outta my mind, but I’ve always been a quick drinker. I’ve always gone in and not stopped. If I was to put it in a sentence, that was my thing with the alcohol is I could never get enough of it. And I drank it quickly and it was messy. And so, yeah, there, I’ve been refused service at bars, at friends’ parties, and at the time it was sort of, aha, you idiots?

Come on man. You know, it was jovial. It was sort of like, ah, you know? But yeah, even myself, I had little signs, even small things, like I noticed that I didn’t really like having a beer with a meal, but I ignored it. So I was actually giving myself signs.

But yeah, times where I knew where I would be into my, like a second bottle of wine when most other people would be still through their first bottle. And people did say things, but. It wasn’t coming from a place of real deep concern. It was more like, Hey man, you know what’s going on? Are you alright?

 You seem to be smashing that back. And, and of course I was messy, you know, I’d fall over or I, I fell onto a glass table once and cut my eyebrow open. So there were signs. But it’s a matter of whether you listen to them or not, or whether you’re in a mental space to listen to them or not.

Simon Rinne: You nailed on the head there for a lot of guys, myself included, as is, as you get older, you are able to start putting the dots together on this type of stuff and going, yeah, there were signs, or was I deflecting? Why was I doing this? And I remember I used to deflect a lot. Yeah. And very similar, you know, very quick to drink.

I’d be on my second by the time anyone’s finished their first. And I’d be going back to the bar or going back to the fridge. And you said hiding as well. Like instead of bringing the empty cans or bottles out to the recycling which is in the kitchen, I’d go into the shed and I’d put them in a box or something like that.

Cuz you’re like, oh, had a bit too many here, but I’m still gonna go cuz this feels good. I’m feeling great. And it’s those incidental comments along the way that you kind of just deflect and go, it’s not me, it’s you. I’m ok. I’m fine. But it always comes back.

Like for me it was like guilt that even though in the moment I felt guilty, but then maybe the next day or the day after start reflecting on it. But then I just bandaid it up with more alcohol as well. 

Simon Bartz: And that’s the, I suppose the quickest and probably the only thing known at the time to think of, to make it better again.

Especially in those mornings. And I wrote a blog about my experiences with addiction and. Two things I wrote is one is that I’ve never experienced anxiety like I have on those mornings when you wake up and you don’t have a clue what happened, you hope everything’s okay. I haven’t seen my wife yet this morning, so I dunno how that’s gonna be received.

What the hell happened? I was sweating. My heart was racing. My God, that was awful. It was just hideous. and I guess the second thing really is that I still perceive that there are benefits to drinking. I still obviously saw that that was the way it was going.

And, it was like I was writing my own script in a play. I was writing my own script, yet I was writing the most horrendous script for myself. And I could see myself writing it and I could see what was gonna happen, and I still allowed it to happen. What’s that about?

Like I used to have a cask of wine in the kitchen top cupboard, and my wife caught me drinking it. She saw me in the reflection one night and I denied it. How do you deny that you were? She saw me do it, you know, but I was writing this play for myself and I could see what was happening, and yet I just, no, I somehow thought, that’s not happening.

It’s not that bad. Come on. You know, you think of every reason on the sun, but that sort of hit me. Looking back now, I thought, how insane is that, that I’m willingly putting myself, I backed myself into a corner where I thought I could not, I can’t get outta this. I can’t even have a celebratory champagne anymore on a birthday or, or a wedding or anything.

I, and I just panicked but yeah, that was the biggest thing for me. I think I was just, I was voluntarily. Annihilating myself. 

Simon Rinne: And you mentioned earlier around when people don’t see you drinking, it’s like, what’s going on? Particularly in our culture, over the years, I’ve tried to have periods off the alcohol.

Because people know me, they know I love beer. Like I love a cold beer is my thing. And if I was to go to a pub, I’d get a lot of anxiety as well. Particularly during these dry periods where if people were meeting up at the pub or for dinner, cuz I was the Parmy and beer guy.

Like, that’s my thing. And yeah. And nothing else, no matter where we go, that was what I was eating and drinking as well. Mm-hmm. But then going out and socializing without alcohol was very much a triggering thing. A lot of anxiety. Like, how am I gonna cope? How am I gonna get through even though these are people that I know and I don’t need to have that social juice.

Yeah. You know, to do it. I still felt that anxiety and also the questions around why aren’t drinking, what’s going on? In your story, did you have periods where you go, I’m gonna cut back, I’m gonna try this going sober for a while, or what was that like? And then I guess, did you get help for it? What was your breakthrough moment? 

Trying sober life

Simon Bartz: Yeah, definitely. So back in 2019, it was New Year’s Eve and we were down at the beach with friends and we drove on the beach down in Silver Sands, down here in lovely South Australia. And I was on light beers. I’d made sure I drank light beers only, but there probably was another few slipped in there somewhere.

Anyway, long story short, we drove up from the sand from the beach and I had to go literally to the first corner on the right and there was a booze bus there and I thought, I’m okay. Like my friends later on said, you were talking fine. You were no problem at all. And I had that stupid, bloody belligerent attitude.

I thought, I’m fine, don’t worry about it. I’ll willingly go through the booze bus, you know? Well I wasn’t, I was mid-range and I lost my license for six months. And so at that time I had to ride to work. It was about 45 minutes each way. And I stopped drinking eight months or so. But I don’t think I was mentally really invested into it. You know, at the beginning I was cuz of the health kick. And I felt there’s a certain clarity that comes with stopping drinking. And it’s not just clear mind, it’s hard to explain. It’s an overall clarity that is just there when it’s not clouded by bloody alcohol and by that false reality you’re living in.

So I did that. I went to an RPG group, which is a relapse prevention group and they were good groups actually. They, it was once a week and we really sat there and all of ’em made sense to me what we were going through about cravings and triggers and your automatic thoughts and, and sort of restructuring how you think about it.

And it all made sense. And I loved it, you know I think there was a novelty factor to it as well in a way. But it was a great novelty and it was a great time. And then I saw a counselor a few times. And it was funny, one of the things he said to me stuck in my head to this day, and he, himself, gave up for nine years, right?

 And he was at the beach with his wife, and he said, I gave myself permission to have a beer. And that was it. For him, boom. Back into it. Much worse than before. I did that myself. I remember sitting there with my wife and we were in the kitchen . I love cooking and part of cooking is having wine and all those associative things.

And I thought, I’ve done really well. And Michelle, my wife, said, yeah, you’ve done really well as well. And I had a glass of wine , and that was no problem. But before you know it, I gave myself permission. And then all of the discipline and all of the positivity from not drinking just slowly slipped away because it just came back.

 And that’s when it came back hard. What I was like before, paled into insignificance, you know morning drinking, hiding little fifths of vodka in the cupboard. And for me, what really clicked, one day I was out of my house. I was staying in motels, my clothes were on the front lawn.

And I just thought,  This is not good. And I knew it wasn’t good, but such is the strength of it that it can take a few times for you to realize that. And for me it was reading. I actually found I was talking with these R P G groups. That’s, that’s fine. And they’re really good and there’s a lot of merit in those.

But I think if you have the right mindset to begin with, that’s all lovely. But you need to have that foundation of actually truly wanting to change. But the one book that really started to change true change was this Naked Mind by Annie Grace.

And the reason I read these books is Annie Grace was drinking two or three bottles of red a night. And I thought, well, you must know. I really wanna know what you’ve got to say. Because that’s true understanding right there. And Talk about addictions.

I happened to be addicted to Kindle for quite some time. I had Kindle on my phone and you can download these samples, and I just went RapidFire and. For me, and it doesn’t work for everyone, but for me it really started really changing. Really changing. You know, I had my son say to me, I love you, daddy, but you’re silly when you drink.

And you’d think that would, you’d have one of those movie moments where you sit there and go, oh my God, it didn’t work for me at the beginning, which is, and , that still makes me, I don’t know, not ashamed, but it’s like, wow man. But for me it was really changing my relationship. 

finding no value in drinking

Simon Bartz: And I think if you can arrive at a place where you don’t find value in it, that’s a really good place to be because you don’t yearn for it.

You don’t long for it. And so then, you’ve talked about being at parties where you feel like you’re sort of ostracized. You are the one drinking soft drinks or whatever. If you don’t find value in it, you don’t long for it, then you don’t need willpower to try and not have it.

 That sounds very easy. And on paper it is easy, but for me it was really, if I was to simplify it, it was really working out that I didn’t see value in it and, and to continue was far, far worse than to try and find the strength to be naked. There’s no more protection of feelings or emotions and you’re really vulnerable and you’re exposed and you have to work it out for yourself.

And so, yeah, that was for me the big one. And, you know, I had New Year’s Eve parties here where my friends knew what had happened and my wife was talking to them, of course, for support. And that was one of the first big parties where I wasn’t drinking and I was the only one not drinking.

And these people were smashing. We got a drive through across the road from our house. Like a bottle-o. Right. Man, I, I honestly felt like a stranger in my own house that night and it was horrible. It was a horrible feeling. It was like I was looking over and I could see them talking about me.

I thought they were. And so I guess those things just happen to thank God culminate into one. 

The benefits of being sober

Simon Bartz: And then from there I just saw clearly, I just thought, nah, this is great. And then the benefits of stopping kick in and they can become much more powerful than worrying about the implications of not drinking .

 And you realize that you can socialize. You go to a wedding and you don’t come back from the wedding saying, oh gee, those beers are really good, weren’t they? You know? No dancing, talking, music, whatever, it was all those. Living now is the biggest thing. And I don’t think you live for the now when you’re constantly sourcing or planning your next drink, you’re not really paying attention to what’s happening now. Yeah. That was a long story. Sorry

Simon Rinne: It’s a good story because it is a complex thing , and it takes decades almost to come to these realizations. I’m interested, are you sober now? 

Simon Bartz: I’m sober. Yeah. I haven’t drunk for four years now and I don’t want to, I can sit around people with bottles of wine and everything and yeah, I love wine and I remember there were good times with that, but to me, this life now and, you know, I wouldn’t have been able to create my counseling business.

No way. Forget it. Absolutely not. There’s no bloody way in hell. I wouldn’t even remember the name of the business half the time probably. And so the way things are now and the clarity and the direction and motivation and drive, and also my relationships with my wife, my children, there’s no way I’m risking that, you know?

So I’ve almost seen the pinnacle of positivity from her. I would be mortified if I let that go, but I don’t want to, I sort of view drinking now. I, I’m sort of looking at alcohol for what it is, which is really, and I don’t wanna be a party pooper, but, you know, I look at it more like I see people around me at parties, and I see them slowly decline and get tired and say the same thing over and over again.

And then they’re just exhausted and they go to sleep, you know? And I don’t see any merit in that . I’m full of energy, and then late at night they’re gonna go to bed, I’m still up, let’s go. And so it’s far too good a lifestyle to jeopardize. 

Mental health benefits of sobriety

Simon Rinne: Yeah. So over the last four years, has there been something that’s helped you stay clean?

Like have you gone to therapy and also like how has your mental health been impacted by being sober as well? 

Simon Bartz: I think mental health, most definitely because there’s no way I could have allowed myself to even consider anything else or getting out of that situation when I was in the thick of it, and such as the power of it and the cloudiness.

And I mentioned being in your own little world, you know, you might think that you are putting this image out of being with it, you know, the functioning, alcoholic but. You can’t hide it, I haven’t seen therapy , I read 16 books. At the beginning, back to back rapid fire. I’m in such a state of mind now, that I think about where I’m going, with my counseling and finishing, I mean, I started studying years ago. But getting back to that, I think that’s enough of a driver and it’s a continual driver.

So it’s not like it’s, there’s ebbs and flows in motivations or efficacy from counseling or the direction I’m going in. But I still sit there and to this day, I still sit there every now and then and think, imagine if I was drunk now, how would that be? And it’s a shit situation.

So, you know, it’s almost like I’ve developed this internal I don’t want it. I don’t long for it. I don’t sit there and look at other people drinking wine and going, oh, blood, I really want a glass. I don’t, because that glass equals misery. And so I think for me, that’s enough to, I don’t even wanna dip my little toe in .

Knowledge is power

Simon Rinne: Touched on something there that I’ve talked to a few guys on the show around when we’re trying to improve something like a mental health or addiction or something like that, we don’t always have to go to therapy and I’m a therapist and you’re a therapist, so we always plug that as, as an option.

But, you know, reading, I always say that knowledge is power. When we ingest good news stuff or information, like for me it was diagnoses of my three mental illnesses and then burnout. So having those diagnoses helped me just put a lot of things into perspective about how my body and brain works.

And likewise, like what you are saying with reading these books back to back, you’re developing this knowledge that you didn’t have before. Just different insight that can create the internal motivation to get clean and then stay clean. So it just shows you that there are different options for people out there who are listening.

It might go, oh, therapy isn’t for me, but maybe a book. 

Simon Bartz: Maybe a book. Yeah, exactly. And as you would know it’s a very lonely lifestyle and I think I totally agree with you. I mean, I became obsessed with learning more about it, and I think the thing that really resonated with me is that I wasn’t alone and, you know, reading these books half the time, I’d be going, oh my God, yes, of course.

Yes, absolutely. I bloody think that exact same thing. You know, there’s all these revelations, just ping left and right. And for me that was, especially when I first started reading, and that was a, a big source of comfort, I think, is that you know, often people who have a problem with whatever addiction, with whatever , there’s a lack of understanding, which is a good thing, I think, from people who don’t face that. And it’s good and bad and bad in the way that they really are unable to empathize with it because they don’t quite understand the true nature of it, I suppose. 

You are not alone

Simon Bartz: But reading these books really gave me that sort of assurance.

I suppose it’s that, you know, Hey, it’s crap, but yeah, you, you’re not alone. And other people are feeling these things and other people have worked through ’em in their own way. I totally agree. I think I got back into exercise. I’m a musician. I played music for 20 odd years. That fell by the wayside.

So I didn’t have time for it. I didn’t have time for anything because I was either looking for a drink , or drunk. I got back into music, massively producing music. Playing music, and. So I guess, whether it be an exercise or reading or whatever, it really got me back to things that I loved, which I let go of.

Simon Rinne: I love how creativity can foster some positive wellbeing is just amazing. I remember my burnout story and I turned to looping music on my Mac garage Band, and I pretended I was a dj. Yeah. It was terrible music. I’m the only person who’s ever listened to it.

 It’s up on YouTube if anyone wants to listen to it. but sitting there even for the hour or two that I put that together, it was just a relaxing thing to do. And then, and it’s like going to the gym, going out for walks, going down to the beach, whatever it is. There’s all these different things that you can do that’s creative or exercise based.

Even just getting your sleep, right. Going to bed earlier, not using so much tech. All these things can have amazing impacts on our health and wellbeing. 

Becoming a counsellor

Simon Rinne: But I wanna talk about the amazing impacts of therapy and now you are the owner of Elevate Counseling, so where did the counseling come in?

Like you mentioned that you were studying over a course of years. Like, did you always want to be a counselor or did this kind of come about because of your struggle? 

Simon Bartz: It half did. I’ve been interested in counseling for years and years and years.

And it sort of did stem from I think I was in between jobs funnily enough. And this was before redundancies even. And I thought, well, what do I really wanna do? And I really love the idea. And so, I signed up for the course and it was an online, self-paced course. And so that was years and years ago, and I like the idea of that, but I don’t think I was ready to do it.

 I wanted to be, you know, and I did the first unit and I was loving it. And then there was no way I could really do that at the time. And I, I didn’t consciously think that just looking back now, even if I wanted to desperately do it, I wasn’t mentally right for it. So it sort of took a backseat for a while and it was really more about job and money and security, financial security for us and the family.

So I really got into sales. I was account managers for a couple of software companies and, and sort of fell into that for quite some time. But within those jobs, that’s where the redundancies happened. And then I got into recruitment. And I don’t like the term I want to help people.

I mean, that’s very general and it’s quite easy to say, but when you’ve got a really inherent and it’s not about helping people, but really getting to know people. That’s, I suppose, because part of helping people is knowing them, of course. So I thought about recruitment. I thought, oh, that’s, you know, finding a new career path is beneficial in many ways for people.

Long story short that was fine, but then I just sat there one day when I was in a meeting . I thought, when we’re talking about getting clients, we’re gonna hold 10 meetings today and we’re gonna get out there. And I thought, I’m nowhere near as excited as I should be about this.

And I just couldn’t get the counseling outta my head. I thought, you’ve started it. It’s what you wanna do. Why the bloody hell aren’t you doing it? And I guess I felt trapped in a way because of the whole money issue. And so I went back to studying it and absolutely loved it. And then I was working with a counseling firm near me, just administration.

Lived experience therapy

Simon Bartz: But I really wanted to give back from experiences. You know, I thought from my lived experiences, there’s no better book you could read, I suppose. But I really wanted to give back and I really wanted to help people or just be there with people. I think I can help people. I don’t like the term that, I think I use the term stand alongside someone.

Like, I like to walk with them. And I really wanted to solidify that in counseling. So at, at first, The addictions counseling was definitely the one that was the really, the one that I wanted to focus on. Grief and loss as well. I lost my mum on my birthday. 10 years ago now. And so then I thought, well, I really wanna be able to deliver myself how I want to, 

I mean, obviously we’re bound by ethics, of course, at an overarching level. But for me it was, I found my way out of this by looking at it through a different lens. And to me it, that’s not every time, but that, that’s, I think that’s really pertinent for a lot of people is the ability to be able to have some way of reframing what’s going on or seeing it through different eyes and apart from that, just to be there with someone and to really genuinely know what they’re going through.

And so then I wanted to start my own business, and, you know, I think tying in with men’s mental health , and obviously addictions, it’s really a symptom of deeper underlying problems. But, the addictions very much go hand in glove with, in many cases for men and, and their mental health and, and the issues of really not speaking up or feeling like you can’t, or, feeling like there’s this oppression of being vulnerable and, and speaking out.

 And I think, it doesn’t help that naturally when people view people who have an addiction, it’s sort of looked down upon, and that’s the last thing people in that situation need. You don’t bloody choose this, you know? So yeah. It definitely came from that. I think it’s just manifested into. A realization of how much addictions in men’s mental health and the fact that we are still living this day in my mind from learned behavior. That’s gonna be very hard to undo or to re choreograph. But I’m hoping that this will be my way of providing what I can towards that, I suppose.

Simon Rinne: Yeah. I first went to a GP around my mental health 2012, and so it’s been, what, 11 years now since I’ve been on my recovery pathway. And I’ve seen lots of different psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, social workers, coaches, you name it, I’ve seen it. The ones that had that shared lived experience were the ones that I really felt I connected with and got a lot of value from.

And now, As a lived experience therapist myself, I pride myself on having this lived experience of mental illness. Mental health conditions, whatever, but also the parenting stuff. Like I’m a dad now. I pride myself on being able to talk about parenting and being a guy. There’s not many guys in our field as well.

It is female driven. For you, what does it mean to be a lived experience therapist and how beneficial , in your sessions with clients , to be able to draw on that lived experience? Obviously, within a framework that often tells us that we shouldn’t divulge anything about ourselves as well.

Simon Bartz: I think it’s invaluable. It resonates with clients. I mean, you don’t even have to say it. I’ve encountered a number of clients who are concerned about that. And you know, rightly so. If you’re talking with someone who’s reading from a book what it might be like to have an addiction, it’s not their fault, but it’s impossible for them to be able to understand and empathize with in the same context and granularity as it is if you’ve lived it.

It makes sense. You know? So I think the lived experience gives me the confidence to talk about it in the way that I do. Cuz I know damn well even though we have our own little bespoke relationship with addiction there are core elements that are, that can probably only really be known if you’ve lived through it, you know?

 And I think that’s hugely beneficial. And, even now , if I go to a pub and I have zero beer. Oh, you’re not drinking, mate. I, I say straight up. No, I said I used to, I used to drink a hell of a lot, but I, I’ve chosen not to, you know, I say it with pride. You mentioned pride before.

I do the same thing because people don’t consciously make a decision to be screwed up on an addiction, and I think I’ve used it hopefully for the benefit of other people and really drawn on that as a huge strength of mine.

Now. It’s a strength now. Mm. I think you said it as well. It’s a strength, it’s not a weakness. Being an addict you’re not weak. It’s a hell of a lot of work that goes into feeding an addiction, but I think it’s, I look at it with pride now cause I’ve found my way through it. And when I see someone so in despair and, and.

There’s so much internal conflict and then I dunno what’s going on, what’s happening to me, man. It’s like, why? Oh, I think I know. Well, I think I know from my perspective, but let’s tap in and see if it resonates with you. So, you know, it’s, it’s almost a gift in a way. I see. It’s almost a gift. 

Elevate Counselling with Simon Bartz

Simon Rinne: So tell us a bit about Elevate Counseling. Like how do you do your work? How do you approach it? Do you have any, I guess, particular modalities that you do? So, for example, mindful Men is around mindfulness based strategies that I draw from. How do you do it differently, from, say the counseling business down the road, and how can people find Elevate counseling?

Simon Bartz: Yeah, absolutely. Well I’m very much solution focused and mindful. I really do believe in the efficacy of both of those. I’m finding that when I see a client, I tend to think, I know it sounds weird, but I don’t like to sit there and think, right, I’m gonna use this modality, I’m gonna do this.

I almost find it impossible to, because you lose the organic nature and flow of it, you know? But definitely I really resonate with finding solutions. So , not dismissing or ignoring what’s happened in the past or what might be the main cause of why someone is seeing me, but really focusing on arming their toolbox and giving them the autonomy and strengths and tools to manage emotions and manage their path forward.

But looking forward I would say in a nutshell, that’s pretty much what I would do. I don’t have a static office. I utilize community center rooms because that way I can be closer to my clients as possible. And I really love the whole nature of using the community. It gets me involved in community centers as well, inadvertently, I’ve got my website, elevatecounseling.co. And I have basically just really focused on getting my name out there and really being amongst people, sporting clubs, youth groups, men’s sheds, tradies, plumbers, carpenters, builders, just, just getting out there.

But I also really, and I have done so with a few clients, and I know you have as well, Simon is I’m a big advocate for outdoors counseling. You know, we don’t have to sit in walls. We can do a jetty to jetty beach walk as a counseling session if that’s what people want. So I really wanna be open to options, you know, and not be very rigid and static with that.

Simon Rinne: I remember the jetty, jetty beach walk. It’s been a long time since it’s been back in Adelaide, but yeah, they’re, they’re pretty frequent and they’re a good landmark to go back and forth. And, we do the same up here. I do the same, I get outside as much as possible, whether it’s for a walk down at the beach.

Like today I saw a client and we went for a drive and another client we take his dog for a walk. And that’s the therapy. Like it’s, it’s walking and talking. It’s being outdoors as much as possible because Yeah, you’re right. We don’t have to sit.

In a clinic space and do six sessions a day like the traditional therapy businesses do. We can get flexible. We can get creative as well. Creativity is amazing in a therapy space. And it’s just around finding that thing that resonates with a particular client and their needs as well.

Simon Bartz: Absolutely. And I think that’s one of many reasons why I wanted to start Elevate Counseling is because I wanted to be able to do that and deliver that and not have to ask someone if it’s okay, and there’s nothing wrong with that because that’s their baby and that’s fine. But that’s really what you know, of course having a, you know, you have to have a great supervisor.

You have to have great people to soundboard off. And I do have that as well, which I think is very important and I’m sure you find the same thing. But yeah, I, I think there’s, the strategy and the therapy and the modality side of counseling. And then there’s the, companion side of counseling, it’s a matter of that organic blend. Sometimes just chatting, not looking at each other, both walking, as you guys, some sitting on a park bench. You don’t look at each other, but you all walk in to get a kebab or doing whatever, that’s equally as important. And for some people, that’s all they want.

. And there’s nothing wrong with that. And that’s hugely effective and still as beneficial as if you were to get down to nuts and bolts. You know, in my mind 

Managing Imposter Syndrome as therapists

Simon Rinne: I often have that internal dialogue in my head because , as a sole trader myself, like, you don’t have the team around you immediately to talk, am I doing the right thing?

So there’s, you know, some clients where I think. All we did was go for a drive today. Like is that therapy. But then when I talk to my supervisor, and I think this is the value of supervision , we reflect on the connection. Yeah. Also giving them a space to talk about certain things, whatever they want.

And every therapy session, no matter where you are, if you’re in a car, if you’re on the park bench, you’re in a clinic space, it’s all up to the client on what they wanna talk about anyway. So they can come into a clinic space and not talk about anything. That’s right. And that would be perfectly fine.

But when you’re a sole trader with a small business, a new business as well, there’s often that internal, am I doing the right thing? Is the best counselor or social worker? And, it is tricky. It is tricky. But I think the fact that clients are coming in the door and they’re ringing you up and they’re having great sessions with you is a testament to what you’re doing.

So well done. 

Simon Bartz: Thank you. Absolutely. And, and just quickly on that, you know as an example, I’m counseling a young guy and I think you and I are talking recently about, you know, self-talk and imposter syndrome coming back to, you know, am I doing enough?

You know, what are they, are they sitting there thinking, why am I paying this guy? You know, but he’s always turned up. He’s never late. He’s early. He’s come to every single session. And in this particular case, we’ve worked out that a lot of our sessions, is that talking shit? That’s what he said as well.

Right? And so if he didn’t like it, you wouldn’t see him again as you know. Why the hell would he come back? But yeah, I think it’s very important to have that sort of benchmarking in a way, or sounding board from good supervision.

And also what I’ve made a point of like yourself is keeping up communication with counselors and other people in the industry. And that’s one thing I loved about even going back to the days when I was studying, you know, going in and doing practicals and, I always left those sessions with some pearl of information.

You always leave with something, you go, wow, that’s a really good point. Something that resonates. And I think that’s really important as well, but it comes back to really being aware of, I listen to myself now a lot more, I think, and I rely on my instincts and I, I really try. And if I think about a situation that becomes overwhelming, like in the mornings when you wake up and your brain goes on, and then you pretty much visualize your entire day.

And you start to panic and you think, oh my God. Now I’m really just sitting there and thinking, okay, let’s look at this differently. Let’s compartmentalize one thing at a time, you know? , but I think, like you said, the biggest testament to how our businesses are going is bums on seats and people are there and they wanna be there, love helping them. I love helping. Because I learn from every client, I learn every session. Again, I always walk away with something myself, which is a bonus I think, 

Simon Rinne: Absolutely. And that’s where imposter syndrome can take a backseat. I remember a couple sessions where I feel like, Am I doing enough?

But then at the end of the session, the client might say something that goes, yeah, I am doing good enough. And that’s all I ever need. That’s what I’m doing is there to hold space for guys , and let them just share what they need to share. Get it off the chest. I always say, leave your baggage with me and I’ll take your baggage.

I’m your baggage handler. But that’s a good saying. I like that. 

Healthy Habits for Men

Simon Rinne: But it is Men’s Health Week, and we’ve talked a lot about, I guess reflecting on life and, and I guess recognition, a lot of insight into what, what’s happening in our life, whether it’s addiction, whether it’s imposter syndrome or whatever it is.

Let’s talk a bit about this year’s theme of healthy habits. And it’s important for, I guess, us as guys to have healthy habits in our lives, but also as therapists as well, trying to keep healthy , and keep things in check because we do take a lot of baggage on, and it can be pretty dark baggage as well.

So, given this year’s theme of healthy habits, what’s some things that you do in your life that are healthy habits that you really love, and why are these important for you? 

Simon Bartz: For me one example of that would be an end time each day to the business. So, as you know I can view my emails on three different devices.

Two of them are mobiles. And so for one thing for me is really being conscious about if I can, I’ve got, of course there’s elasticity with that, you know, depending on the circumstances, but really is. Is saying, right. Come five o’clock. That’s it. You know, especially when the kids are here and really making sure that I’m providing quality time and engaged with my family and my children because I know how important time is, good time, quality time is for everyone, but especially my kids.

And so for me, that’s most definitely one thing I, I make sure I do. And I think it’s like I’m in a position where even things like I go and do weights or exercise four mornings a week, you know, and I don’t like to miss them because I feel different if I miss them. But that’s about really coming down to, yeah, that self-care and, and really doing something that I feel is positive for me and that I get good feelings out of.

But I think it’s really, I. Again, it comes back to, you know I guess an ability to be transparent with how you’re going, who you are, and focusing on the fact that we often don’t talk about what we’re feeling.

We often don’t discuss our perception of things or how we feel or how we see things and of course the less you divulge, the less you talk about things, the more they compound and you become resentful or you, you know, a whole myriad of things. So I think consistency with self-care, 

is very important. So those are the things there. Even coming down to good nutrition and eating well , and getting enough sleep, I mean, with kids, as you know, it’s almost comedy saying that, but I think for me, really making that clear line between family time and work, and I devote 120% to both in their respective times.

And also I think for me personally it is, really just talking, especially in our profession. It’s a good recalibrator and a grounder, I think. Just to, just to have a chat, just keep that communication open with peers as well.

Simon Rinne: Yeah. I’m gonna add talking to your list there, because I guess as the Mindful Men podcast, my aim with this is to inspire other guys to hear stories and that resonate with them and go, you know, what, if, if these two Simons can talk for an hour or so around men’s mental health and addiction and all that, then maybe I can, and maybe I’ll book in with Elevate Counseling , or have a chat with somebody who’s really close to me that, I look up to and respect as well.

That’s a really positive thing. 

But Simon, I could talk to you all day and, and I have earmarked you already for another episode around IVF cause I think that’d be a really cool discussion to have from a dad’s perspective. So we’ll hook that up later on. But two more questions and I’ll let you go, as you mentioned the website before.

Is there anywhere else that people can find you if they’re looking to engage with you? Are you on social media or things like that? 

Simon Bartz: Yeah, so I do have a LinkedIn page and Facebook page as well. But my main website, elevatecounseling.co is my main website. I’m on Psychology today as well. But really I think those three things are social as well.

Sort of intermingling and Just keeping that presence going there really as well. But yeah, as far as people can find me online, that would be the best way to go about 

Simon Rinne: And we’ll put the links in the show notes so people can easily find you there. The last question I like to end on with all my guests is to plug something that makes you feel good.

And this is a pay it forward thing where you can share what you’re reading or watching or maybe playing in music or exercise, whatever it is. Doesn’t have to be mental health related or addiction related. Just something that makes you feel good that other people can tune into and maybe experience that as well.

Simon Bartz: I will say music. . It’s very cathartic and I was talking with a couple of younger clients of mine on making playlists that are mood specific or that, you know, if you wanna feel energized and angry and yelling and screaming, make a playlist for it. But for me, creativity through music as well, I mean, not everyone is musically creative, of course, but I think really just, I would say the thing that coincides with music for me is I’m totally in a good way, isolated with it.

And it’s, it’s time for me where I can put headphones on and that’s just me. And it’s that, that little world, oh, I look forward to it. I love it. You know, and I think Yeah. So I think definitely listening to great music, just giving time for that. As an example, out of probably many that I could pull out of my hat, but I think for me that’s one thing definitely is just really giving yourself some time, where you’re completely isolated from the entire world and you can just focus on something that you want to focus on that you inherently love. 

Simon Rinne: Yeah. Is there a song or a singer that’s on your playlist at the moment that you’re really vibing with?

Simon Bartz: Oh, mate, I’ve got so many genres I love, look, I’m always a fan of the chili peppers. Yeah. Always give me a bit of fleas, bass playing. And that’s what ignited my bass playing years ago. It’s exciting, it’s energized and so I think for me , a 1991 album is still as current today as it was back then.

Blood sugar, sex magic, man. I think the premise behind that though, really is if you find something that really can allow you to escape, but not escape for necessarily bad reasons or negative reasons, but escaping for re-energizing , and recharging. Definitely. 

Simon Rinne: Yeah. Love it. Simon, thanks so much for coming on and being mindful about addiction and men’s mental health today. Really have loved our chat and I always do love having a chat with you whenever we do catch up. So thanks for coming on and, and I wish you all the best for the rest of the day and hope you have a great week.

Simon Bartz: Thank you, Simon. It’s been wonderful. Thank you.